Why I consider the mormon church *a hate group.*

Here is a post from Cheryl at RFM. For the first time ever, i’m cutting out part of the post. You can follow the link if you want to read it all, but I feel two of the last paragraphs are 1-unsourced, and 2-specific to regular followers of the RFM board.

Here is the post:

Why I consider the mormon church *a hate group.*

They are supremesists. Like the JWs, they believe they are the gatekeepers for eternal life. They have the one true way, the only keys to Heaven, meaning the CK. They think their males have actual magic power to speak for and do miricles in the name of God Almighty.

This is what TBMs believe and must agree to if they want to be “worthy” members of their church. No other church that I know of issues a document designating that some of its members are “worthy,” meaning that all other humans without such a credential are officially “unworthy.”

I’ve many times heard mormons say that they feel “Satan” when they’re in the presence of an “apostate,” a woman who doesn’t have her arms and legs covered, or anyone who is openly gay.

They’ve coined a whole set of slurs for non-worthy members and non-members, including gentiles, inactives, non-members, less-actives, drinkers, smokers, coffee drinkers, “people of the world.” This is only a partial list.

They feel entitled to target anyone they choose for harassment. Mormons are taught to discount the word “no” and “I’m not interested.” They harassed me in my home for over 25 years after being told “no.”

They actually hold meetings and discuss individuals, some they’ve never met. They plan strategy for breaking down the will of their targets and discounting their nos.

They don’t only feel entitled to harass, but also to shun. The shunning is usually saved for those they know personally, those they think might be hurt by it.

Mormons have special doctrines which demean minority groups in society, including racial groups, females, gays, Catholics, and others.

And mormons are the only group I know who does dead rituals to mormonize those who chose not to be members of that church in life. This is a final desecration for the wishes and memories of unworthy dead “gentiles” who can no longer speak for themselves.

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92 Responses to “Why I consider the mormon church *a hate group.*”

  1. Mark Says:

    It sounds like Mormon must have wronged you in the past or something. I think it said that your view of Mormonism has been skewed, and somewhat misdirected. In fact, many of your so called claims are actually half-truths at best. For example, we (I myself am a member) believe that all people must choose Christ and receive his ordinances (such as baptism) in order to return to him. However, our actions are motivated out of love and a desire to share what makes us happy. I’ve lived in over 17 places, and attended the faith all across the world and not once have I been taught to be prejudice, hateful or judgmental of people for any reason (including gender, race or personal or religious belief). In fact, I have been taught and have witnessed the opposite. The faith teaches me that my wife is an equal, that I should love and reach out to all people, and that all people will have a chance to accept Christ (without force) in this life or the next (if they did not have the chance here).

  2. measure76 Says:

    Mark, I don’t think I can get through to you.

    But I’d like to remind my readers that 1- I rarely post my own work here, the posts are generally from exmormon.org.

    2- The mormon church DOES discriminate on gender. In no instance, anywhere in the mormon church, is a woman EVER allowed to have authority over ANY male priesthood holder.

    Women are denied the priesthood all together, and denied any leadership callings except in the woman’s part of the organization.

    Finally, the church also discriminates against Gays, going so far as to support an amendment in California to overturn Gay’s right to get married, even going so far as to tell their members to vote against gay rights.

  3. D. Rolling Kearny Says:

    Whoever posted the original article is an idiot of the highest order. Let me illuminate.

    Allegation 1:
    Mormons are “supremesists [sic]. Like the JWs, they believe they are the gatekeepers for eternal life. They have the one true way, the only keys to Heaven…”

    Response:
    Hello? Ever read the Bible (let alone other LDS scriptures)? There was only EVER one way, and that one way always had the priesthood. (Matt. 16: 19
    And I will give unto thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.)

    Allegation 2:
    “They think their males have actual magic power to speak for and do miricles in the name of God Almighty.”

    Response:
    Well, if the author was formerly Mormon, as I would assume was implied, and had been in the church for more than 5 minutes, they should themselves have experiences they could share to prove this point. While we don’t believe that the priesthood is anything like magic, we do believe in miracles, and they happen all the time. My friend was in a motorcycle accident and the doctors told his wife that he was so far gone that she should pull the plug on him. They insisted that she do it. They yelled at her when she refused. He was given a priesthood blessing and survived. Coincidence? His family doesn’t think so. Another example: a lady in my last ward was in a car accident and her arm was shattered. The doctors told her they would be unable to fix it because it was in too many fragments. She had a priesthood blessing. The next day the doctors took a second x-ray and found that the arm was somehow healed enough that they could now fix it. Sounds just like when the apostles “spoke for and did miracles in the name of God Almighty” in the Bible, no?

    Allegation 3:
    “No other church that I know of issues a document designating that some of its members are “worthy,” meaning that all other humans without such a credential are officially “unworthy.” ”

    Response:
    Did you ever even go to the temple? The whole point of the temple is for individuals who have prepared themselves (by making themselves worthy) to enter into special promises with our Heavenly Father. People who are not ready to make such solemn commitments with God would do so only to their own detriment. It’s the same reason we don’t remember anything when we are born. If we did, we would be held responsible for obeying every commandment from birth, because we would have a complete knowledge of those things. The principle of Faith allows us to grow at our own pace, learning to be obedient to God one step at a time, “line upon line.”

    Allegation 4:
    “I’ve many times heard mormons say that they feel “Satan” when they’re in the presence of an “apostate,” a woman who doesn’t have her arms and legs covered, or anyone who is openly gay.”

    Response:
    Well, in my 35 years as a member, I have never heard anyone say anything like this. However, if you were around someone who a) chose to be disobedient to God, b) was dressed inappropriately, or c) was actively involved in a lifestyle that was in direct opposition to God’s dictates, who would you say it was that had prompted those individuals to make those choices? To be sure, no one can force us to do anything, but our lifestyle (including dress and appearance) is informed by our internal state, which is in turn informed by our choices, which is informed by our either listening to the Holy Spirit, or to Satan. So, I guess, even if anyone HAD said those things, which I highly doubt, they would certainly make sense.

    Allegation 5:
    “They’ve coined a whole set of slurs for non-worthy members and non-members, including gentiles, inactives, non-members, less-actives, drinkers, smokers, coffee drinkers, “people of the world.” This is only a partial list.”

    Response:
    First, no Mormon since the 1800’s, and I am pretty sure not even then, has ever referred to non-Mormons as “gentiles.” That’s stupid. Second, most of the terms you listed were not “coined” by Mormons. The categories of “drinker” and “smoker” have been around since time immemorial, and even included many Mormons in the early days, prior to the Word of Wisdom. Inactive and less-active are definitely Mormon terms, but just like “non-member,” they were not coined by Mormons, and are used the world around by numerous groups for numerous reasons. If this were a Catholic discussion, we would be perfectly justified to refer to everyone else as “non-Catholic,” or “non-members.” It is simply the truth. And, it is the way human beings communicate. We refer to ourselves according to the groups we belong to or don’t belong to (Democrats/non-Democrats, Americans/foreigners, etc).

    Allegation 6:
    “They feel entitled to target anyone they choose for harassment. Mormons are taught to discount the word “no” and “I’m not interested.” They harassed me in my home for over 25 years after being told “no.”

    They actually hold meetings and discuss individuals, some they’ve never met. They plan strategy for breaking down the will of their targets and discounting their nos.”

    Response:
    Gee, I can still recall the first time I was taught to “discount the word “no” and “I’m not interested.” My Mom really had a hard time disciplining us because she had to discount us every time we said no. That sure made life hard for her. Could I borrow the car? Of course! What’s Mom gonna say, no? Well, I’ve already been taught to discount that! But seriously, stupid, the people who were visiting you were doing so out of compassion. What we are taught is to take our stewardship for each other seriously. You failed to mention that it was probably your Home or Visiting Teachers who were coming by. And that they asked how you were doing, helped you with your dishes, and invited you to church. Man, those guys sound like vicious Satan worshipers! And for 25 years?! You must have been declining really quietly. I know that I have gone to visit people who asked not to be visited. And you know what? We didn’t! Or, they got another visit to find out what issues they had and whether or not they wanted to have their names taken off the records of the church. Now that’s hateful! Oh, and the strategy meetings? I’ve been in several. It’s never been about “breaking down the will of their targets and discounting their nos.” It HAS always been about what we can do to serve and help members who are having issues in their life.

    Allegation 7:
    “They don’t only feel entitled to harass, but also to shun. The shunning is usually saved for those they know personally, those they think might be hurt by it.”

    Response:
    Again, I remember all the Sacrament meetings where the talk was “How to Recognize Who Might be Hurt by Shunning, and How to Do It.” Those were also fun times, boy howdy! Because, you know, that’s how you get people to open up to you so that you can have Gospel conversations, isn’t it, by shunning them? That is another one of the stupidest things I have ever heard in my life. True, if people notice that you are doing things that are inappropriate, they might choose to avoid you. Who would blame them? But I believe that goes for any person toward any other person. It’s a basic human right. You can hang around with whomever you choose. As for any official form of “shunning,” there is none. Some members may be excommunicated because of their actions, but they are always allowed to come to church, though not to take the sacrament. They are always allowed to attend other church functions, as far as I know, but their names are no longer on the membership roll. Why would we be turning our backs on people when we believe that the church is where they belong, and that there is always the hope that they will repent and come back?

    Allegation 8:
    “Mormons have special doctrines which demean minority groups in society, including racial groups, females, gays, Catholics, and others.”

    Response:
    Not our regular doctrines, of course. Just the “special” ones. These are all ridiculous points, and I will only mention one in particular. Is it so terrible to say that we believe that our church is the only true church? Is this really discriminating against Catholics? They believe the same thing! And we applaud them for it! Why would anyone belong to a church that they don’t believe will lead them to their salvation?

    Allegation 9:
    “And mormons are the only group I know who does dead rituals to mormonize those who chose not to be members of that church in life. This is a final desecration for the wishes and memories of unworthy dead “gentiles” who can no longer speak for themselves.” ”

    Response:
    This is unquantifiable crap. If you ever had the missionary discussions, or lessons, prior to baptism, you would have had to sit through the lessons on Baptisms for the Dead. Either then, or during the New Member lessons, I don’t remember which. And, during the course of those lessons (or, in this internet age, if you just looked it up on http://www.lds.org), you would discover how this practice works. I’ll tell you now, and save you the time, okay? Are you ready? The ordinance is performed in behalf of a deceased person, WHO THEN HAS THE OPTION OF CHOOSING FOR THEMSELVES WHETHER OR NOT TO ACCEPT IT! This practice is similar to repentance and the atonement of Jesus Christ – He performed the work, but we must choose to accept it, and practice obedience through faith, for it to apply to our lives. We don’t expect everyone to accept the work that is done in their behalf. PLUS, if you truly don’t believe in the priesthood, then it is just a quaint, meaningless ceremony, and you shouldn’t fret over its eternal insignificance, eh? At that point, why do you care, other than to cause grief for a people you have chosen to dig pits for?

    And, finally, a response to the comments by the author of this blog post:

    Allegations 10 & 11:
    “The mormon church DOES discriminate on gender. In no instance, anywhere in the mormon church, is a woman EVER allowed to have authority over ANY male priesthood holder.

    Women are denied the priesthood all together, and denied any leadership callings except in the woman’s part of the organization.

    Finally, the church also discriminates against Gays, going so far as to support an amendment in California to overturn Gay’s right to get married, even going so far as to tell their members to vote against gay rights.”

    Response:
    Once again, have you ever read the Bible? Here, let me quote 1 Corinthians for you:

    “Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but they are commanded to be under obedience, as also saith the law.

    And if they will learn any thing, let them ask their husbands at home: for it is a shame for women to speak in the church” (1 Cor. 14: 34-35).

    This verse has been the bane of many Christian churches over time, and is the reason the Jehovah’s Witnesses do not allow women to speak in their churches. The Joseph Smith Translation of this verse, however, corrects the word “speak” to be “rule,” thus being a direct commandment that women not be allowed to hold the priesthood. God has specific purposes for each gender, and it is not up to us to question or seek to change what He has decreed.

    As for the gays, the Bible also speaks loudly and clearly on this issue, as well. You will find the following PDF file informative, if you are unclear on this concept:
    http://www.fairlds.org/pubs/BiblicalHomosexuality.pdf

    All in all, I am not certain that these quite vocal so-called “ex-Mormons” were ever actually Mormon. If so, they should have taken the Lord’s advice:

    “Seek not to declare my word, but first seek to obtain my word, and then shall your tongue be loosed; then, if you desire, you shall have my Spirit and my word, yea, the power of God unto the convincing of men.

    But now hold your peace; study my word which hath gone forth among the children of men, and also study my word which shall come forth among the children of men, or that which is now translating, yea, until you have obtained all which I shall grant unto the children of men in this generation, and then shall all things be added thereto” (D&C 11: 21-22).

  4. measure76 Says:

    Readers… holy crap. Look at the above post… Will I ever need any more evidence that the mormon church is a cult than what D Rolling has posted here?

    Strict control over thought, actions, hopes and dreams. Control over EVERY message, all information.

    Thank you D Rolling, for providing this proof that mormonism is a cult. I will be indebted to you forever.

  5. D. Rolling Kearney Says:

    “Strict control over thought, actions, hopes and dreams. Control over EVERY message, all information.”

    Sure. Because, you know, my bishop stands right behind me while I am surfing the internet at my house so he can tell me how to respond to asinine anti-Mormon posts, right?

    I would expect you to shoot holes in my response if what I was saying was incorrect, but instead you stoop to personal insults. Nice.

    If you really think that Mormons are brainwashed and all think the same thing, you really need to get yourself over to http://mormonblogs.org/ and read through a few posts by different LDS people. You might also enjoy the article by Orson Scott Card, the well-known author, on this topic: http://www.beliefnet.com/story/49/story_4906_1.html

    You might also enjoy this site: http://mormoncult.org/

  6. D. Rolling Kearney Says:

    BTW, how did you come to the conclusion, based on my post, that somehow, someone’s “thought, actions, hopes and dreams” were being controlled…? That seems like quite a jump, especially considering I spent quite a while thinking about the allegations that were being made and how to best respond to them. What sounds a little iffy to me is when someone puts out BS like this post and claims that they are a former Mormon and people like you simply take their word for it. But when an active long-time Mormon comes on the scene and thoughtfully rebuts their claims, somehow I am the one who is disingenuous.

    Just something to think about.

    Unless your “hopes and dreams” have been smashed by intelligent conversation.

  7. measure76 Says:

    When you post a response longer than the original post, it’s a clears sign of you trying to control every aspect of the message.

    You aren’t interested in exploring mormon theology, you’re only interested in refuting every statement that might be construed as anti-mormon.

  8. measure76 Says:

    I love Orson Scott Card’s books, by the way. Read each and every one of them. Even the Danny Ainge Bio, because I found a copy in a used bookstore.

    But he’s a complete nut when it comes to faith related issues.

  9. nads Says:

    yah this D. Rolling Kearny behaves exactly like white supremists when confronted, well I guess that makes sense as lds is a known white supremist group. Guys like this have no conscience which is a plus for religions based on anti-ethics and hate.

    Now that the lds has proven beyond a shadow of a doubt that it is a hate group with prop8, it’s time for americans to treat them as they are.

  10. K Rowe Says:

    When citing 1Corintians, you need to adhere to the text as a whole and cite both testaments, not just old. Secondly, the Catholic church does not claim all other religions to be gentiles or to be the one “true” way, perhaps pious at best, but not exclusive. Lastly, despite my educated and researched belief that LDS is does not equate to TRUE Christianity, I do commend them for backing a moral standing. The choice to be gay does not make someone a bad person, but it is a moral stance. So, if one chooses to be gay does that mean that they are the only ones that have a ‘RIGHT’ and are ‘CORRECT’? Someone has rights to not be discriminated against if they choose homosexuality as their life preference, but if someone else feels that is immoral, they don’t have a right? I will say upfront that I am a Christian, I do have friends that are gay, I don’t see myself as better than them, I do have a friend that is a Mormon that I do not agree with about the fundamentals of the LDS church, but guess what people, that is life we were all created differently for a reason, that does NOT mean we all hate one another and throw lambasting parties. Part of being a human is having a brain that is capable of higher thought processes, which includes engaging if conversation, having compassion, and using our gifts.

  11. measure76 Says:

    K Rowe, NOBODY should have a right to be bigoted, and claiming a behavior is immoral is Bigoted, when the behavior harms nobody, and when the morals come from a book that says slavery, genocide, and even rape is a-ok as long as it’s done in God’s name.

    Of course, the book of mormon goes further claiming that even cold-blooded murder is ok, if done in God’s name.

  12. KRowe Says:

    I am not sure what Bible you have read that in, but I assure you that NOWHERE in ANY Bible that I have read is there ANYTHING about hating in the name of God, killing in the name of God be it genocide, abortion, homicide or any murder of any nature, nowhere is slavery condoned, nor is rape, in fact all of these very things, more in fact, sadden God and anyone who cares about the human race. I am not really sure who has been telling you that these things are done in the name of God, but rest assured they UNEQUIVOCALLY are NOT. I am really sorry that someone(s) have contorted your view of God to such an indescribably distorted view. Or, maybe you just feel this way about one particular “faction” like the LDS church, I don’t know, but really get to know the truth before making generalizations, and definitely know God on his terms and not some maniacal rantings of someone(s) that claim such horrors are done in the name of God, that’s just balderdash.

  13. measure76 Says:

    Well, for starters, you could look at this list of God-condoned cruelty in the Bible:
    http://skepticsannotatedbible.com/cruelty/long.html

    Or this list for the book of Mormon:

    http://skepticsannotatedbible.com/BOM/cr/long.html

    Some of the highlights…

    God commands cold-blooded murder, 1 Nephi 4:10 (we’ll save the God condoned lying and stealing for another discussion)

    In the Bible, Lot refuses to give up his angels to the perverted mob, offering his two “virgin daughters” instead. He tells the bunch of angel rapers to “do unto them [his daughters] as is good in your eyes.” This is the same man that is called “just” and “righteous” in 2 Peter 2:7-8. 19:7-8

    In Isaiah: If God can find you, he will “thrust you through,” smash your children “to pieces” before your eyes, and rape your wife. He will have no mercy, but will even kill your little children. 13:15-18

    In Ezekiel: Two sisters were guilty of “committing whoredoms” by pressing their breasts and bruising “the teats of their virginity.” As a punishment, one sister’s nakedness was discovered, her children were taken from her, and she was killed by the sword. And the fate of the surviving sister was even worse: Her nose and ears were cut off, she was made to “pluck off” her own breasts, and then after being raped and mutilated, she is stoned to death. 23:1-49

    The point is, the God of the Bible and the Book of Mormon is a very, very evil God.

  14. KRowe Says:

    First off, the list that you linked me to were cherry picked verses that anyone could read as you claim them to. Secondly, are you aware of the structure of the Bible, not the Mormon addendum or canon or whatever, but just the Old and New Testament? Before I engage in an intelligent discussion, I want to make sure that you know how it is set up, how certain books were written (as no author pens in the same hand, even today), and if you recognize the duality of certain book and verses.

  15. measure76 Says:

    Uhm, make whatever point you feel like.

    Yes, these verses were cherry-picked. To continue the anaology, a tree with so many rotton, stinking cherries should not merely be pruned, but rather burned down to the ground.

    The God of the Bible, and the God of the Book of Mormon, is EVIL. EVIL.

  16. KRowe Says:

    In other words, you have your mind set that you are correct and unless someone agrees with you there is no room for discussiion, got it!

  17. measure76 Says:

    Same as you, then?

    Look, I’m open to hear if you have any proof that your God exists. But if you are going to come on here and preach the gospel, you will be slammed.

    I WAS mormon, I’ve been there, done that for 30 years. I dont’ need anyone to try to convert me back to that mind-control cult.

    It is clear to me now that there is no God, and that kind of made my belief in mormonism evaporate.

  18. Caitlin Says:

    As a non-active mormon I would just like to say something. I’m a moderate, a feminist and a vegan, but never have I been offended by the beliefs of my religion. The only topic I care to respond to is the the place of women in the LDS church. Yes, it would appear to some that women are unequal to men or held in a lesser place. I believe this to be false. It is true that women do not hold the priesthood. Many look at the priesthood like a crown or magic power, but it is only a gift given to MEN deemed worthy in the eyes of GOD to hold it. Just as women do not have the priesthood men can’t concieve children. Not because that is all women are good for and that having and raising children is their PLACE but because it is a gift from God that men do not have. Not because one is not worhty of the other but because the Lord has different “jobs” for men and women. I would also like to say that the church encourages women to be STRONG, EDUCATED, INDEPENDENT, STABLE, LOVELY beings. However it is the CHOICE of indivduals to be what they want to be. CHOICE is one of the many gifts the Lord gave to all.The alligations you have put on the LDS church are your personal views and it is your right to speak them. I also have that same right and just want to say that your posts sound angry and come not from a place of education or a want to inform but from one of anger, pain, and bittnerness. I’m sorry that any experiance you have had would leave such a bad taste in your mouth.

  19. measure76 Says:

    This is incorrect. The priesthood is not only given to worthy men, but also to worthy male children as young as 12.

    Also, the LDS version of worthy doesn’t mean what you would think. To be worthy, all you have to do is CLAIM to live the gospel, not actually live it.

    It is horrendous that the church gives more authority to 12 year old boys than to adult women.

  20. Caitlin Says:

    I apologize for my vauge answer. Please excuse it. When I said “men” I should have said male. It is true that you only have to claim to live what the church would call a worthy lifestyle. Again that is where choice and accountability comes in. As for your claim that the church “gives more authority to 12 year old boys that an adult women” I have no need to address that. If you really were a Mormon you know, as well as anyone who has a proper knowledge of the church, that this is not true. Again, your posts are angry not informative. I’m very sorry you feel this way.

  21. measure76 Says:

    Oh really? Can you name any woman in the church who has authority over a 12 year old priesthood holder?

    Yet these 12 year olds can be, and are, called as home teachers, given them authority over the households they are assigned to, women and all.

  22. Caitlin Says:

    The women who hold authority over anyone under the age of 18 priesthood holder or not are called their mothers. You know as well as I do that your statement is false.

  23. measure76 Says:

    Mother is not a calling assigned by the church, and is not a church position of authority.

  24. measure76 Says:

    I will also note that you have conceded the point that the church puts 12 year olds in authority positions above women in other households than their own, through home teaching.

  25. Caitlin Says:

    I didn’t acknowledge that statement because you know it’s not true. Priesthood authority is not a ruling hand but one of guidance and blessing. Your home teachers have a responsability to help their designated households to provide any assistance they may need not act as tyrants over them. Also 12 year olds do not get called as home teachers. Only elders can be called as senior companions. I didn’t need to tell you any of this you already know it. You’re just angry.

  26. Caitlin Says:

    Also, women hold callings that men do not (relief society, young womens, visiting teachers, etc.,) so its not one sided. And callings such as sunday school teachers (which of course women hold) have authority over their class which almost always has a priesthood holder in it. Ergo a women can have authority over a priesthood holder.

  27. KRowe Says:

    Ok 76, sorry for the delay but it was unavoidable. Let me be clear, I am NOT here to “convert” anyone to anything, that being said…… No, not same as me. I have never been nor do I aspire to be a Mormon, like I said I have a good friend that is a Mormon and we do not see eye to eye, if you will. The way I am wired is primarily Scientific and with that frame of mind comes a propensity to be willing to prove and suspend. If your sole purpose is to slam me, as you put it, then there is not point in engaging in any dialogue. I do wish to address the scripture that you mentioned.
    A) There is no NEPH in the Old or New Testament, I tried to figure out if it was a mistype for ZEPH, but that only has 3, so I was unable to ascertain what you were getting at.
    B) 2Peter is talking about 2 things, is you read it in it’s ENTIRETY. 1, FALSE teachers. 2, How God will not tolerate a world of sinning (enter Sodom, Gomorrah, Babylon) where, uh let’s see people (children included) were raped, sodomized, performed unspeakable, inhuman acts- gee, I wonder why God would destroy such a place.
    There is NO WAY children would not go to Heaven, no matter what environment they had to endure. Look at society today, do honestly believe that children are not victims??????
    C) Isiah talks SPECIFICALLY about Babylon, not the average town, home, family, or person, AN ENTIRE CITY/NATION that devoted itself to the ultimate debouchery in every sense of the word.
    D) Ezekial was the same message a good parent gives to their child, and I do speak from that experience, and that is this: continue down this path (in this case, God citing sin), and you and everyone around you will suffer the consequences. That is how it is now. If I choose to do something wrong, I don’t just affect me, it’s the ripple effect.
    Clearly you are angry, wanting to lash out, and feel betrayed. Not everyone that has left a church, be it LDS or otherwise, is always able to get the bad taste out of their mouth, but I will say that I will forever be grateful for having the chance to dialogue with you and I will pray that your hurts are mended. I really hate to see people with so much anger and resentment.

  28. KRowe Says:

    One more thing. You said proof that “my” God exists. There is only 1 God and that is the God that created life, the God that started in Genesis and ended in Revelations. You say God is evil but then you say you don’t believe in God, which is it? The evil I witness is around me EVERY SINGLE DAY, children being sold into sex slave rings, pornography like there is no tommorrow, rape, murder, people being ripped off left and right, rights being trampled on so there is no decency or humility, an undivided nation that is primed for anyone to come in and defeat us, shall I go on?

  29. measure76 Says:

    Above, Caitlin says 12 year olds do not get called as home teachers. This is a lie. This is an example of Mormons lying for the lord, which I’ve covered before.

    Second, Caitlin says that Women are called as Sunday School Teachers with authority over their class. This is also a lie. The presiding officer in sunday school is always a man, who turns over the time, sometimes to a woman, to teach the class, but not to preside over the class.

    Krowe gives examples of how evil the world is… I see this as further proof of God’s evilness, since he allows it all to happen. God does not step in to stop any atrocity in this world, therefore, he is evil.

    As for ‘your’ God, there are lots of religions in this world that would disagree with you that there is only one God, or that yours is the correct God. What we are looking for here is evidence that yours exists.

  30. measure76 Says:

    One other note, I referenced a “Nephi” from the book of mormon, but no “Neph”. Not sure where you are getting that from.

    As for your other justifications for how Evil God isn’t… I find it funny that you would go to such lengths to defend an evil God.

  31. Caitlin Says:

    76 I’m afraid that your statements are the lies. There is no fact to support them just your anger. You sound uneducated and immature. All this talk of an “Evil God”. If you believe him to be an evil God or a non-existant one, of which I’m not sure, then that is your right. I however know Him to be a loving one and trust his plan, even if at times it seems unfair. Also, I have been in many a sunday school class where a man has never “turned the time over” infact the only time I have seen this is when there are two male sunday school teachers. If you did any proper research you would know that the church now requires that two teachers be in a sunday school class at a time. They take turns teaching the class so of course when one is done with a lesson they will turn the time over to the next teacher.

  32. Caitlin Says:

    Also, one I forgot to mention. Women of the church also hold the calling of seminary teachers. They would also have authority over their classroom.

  33. measure76 Says:

    First, any sunday school class is presided over by a “Sunday School President” who is ALWAYS a man.

    Second, I believe there is NO God, But if there were a God, the scriptural and logical evidence both point to him being Evil.

    Finally, Seminary Teachers have no preisthood authority, period. They are unpaid volunteers (some recieve a small stipend), unless they work for CES, in which case, they are all Men.

  34. KRowe Says:

    Since I am not Mormon, clearly that would be the reason for me having no clue what it was you were referring to. (sorry, I left off the “i”) as I mentioned “Old and New Testament”, that should have been your clue.
    I don’t have to justify God. Do you have the CHOICE to do as you wish, say what you want, act how you want to, believe in what you want to, think what you think?, etc.-That my dear is called free will. You will find that thread in ALL “religions”, you have the choice to pursue……whatever “it” is in any religion. You still have not said anything definitive about God, you say you don’t believe but then you say he is evil, I don’t see that as a duplicitous choice. I see the world as evidence that evil exists and we can choose to partake or not, God does not force ANYONE to accept him, Jesus died so that we could choose him, but it’s STILL a choice. People say, surely there is not a God because the world is like a living hell, well let’s see a basic and natural law is that you can not have your cake and eat it too ergo you can not dictate what is right based on society and choose to live a life full of sin and then stand finger pointing as if you’re innocent of not making bad choices-that is just common sense, something that society seems to have abandoned as of late. I will digress with that though as it is an entirely different subject. How do you know that God does not step in with any atrocity in this world, can you prove that???? Can you substantiate your claim that God does not exist? Can you prove, other than extrapolating 1 sentence out of an entire book, that God is evil?
    As I said, I am wired science first, so how do you go about proving the aforementioned without suspension-I am intrigued. I want cold, hard facts. Fact, we know dinosaurs exist, why? We found fossils, before that people may have speculated but now we have proof. Prove to me that there is no God that was written about starting in Genesis and ended in Revelations.

  35. measure76 Says:

    First, of course you don’t have to justify God. But as you choose to come here and talk about it, what am I going to do, let you preach? Not on my blog!

    Of course there is no proof that there is No God. All there is is a complete lack of evidence supporting the theory that God exists.

    Which is why I ask, What makes belief in your God more valid than, say, belief in Zues or Thor?

  36. Caitlin Says:

    76 you are a kick in the pants. I really do admire your audacity. Reguardless of my admiration you are still wrong. Believe what you will about God, but you know as well as I do that what you say about the church is false. All the same it’s your God given right to think and say what you will. I hope that anyone who would want an accurate account of the church workings would consult a more reliable source and not one of an angry ex-mo.

  37. measure76 Says:

    What false statement aobut the church have I made? Please back up with mormon sources to prove me a fraud.

  38. Caitlin Says:

    Yes it is true that there is priesthood authority over the positions I have mentioned. Please allow me to specify what the priesthood is, not a ruling hand but one to help in anyway the person holding can. Why is it only given to men? The same reason men do not carry children, thats just the way it is. That being said although women do not hold priesthood authority of their classrooms they do hold authority. This does not mean that the women’s authority of her class is in any way underminded. Being a feminist I can understand some of your problems with the church. Some of its practices have not always sat well with me. After further study and self discovery I believe that women do not have to be the same as man to be equal to them.

  39. measure76 Says:

    Oh, so suddenly I am not wrong, but rather, you agree with me that some of my concerns were valid. Interesting backstep from calling me a liar. (or at least, a post ago you had called my statements false)

    Women may not need to be the same as men, I agree. But whether the church should reward men for having a penis while denying the same rewards to women for the sin of not having penises, is what I am trying to get at here.

    There is no reason that a Woman wouldn’t make a great Bishop or Stake President, but in the sexist mormon church, it will never happen.

  40. Caitlin Says:

    I never claimed that you were a liar just that your claims were false. I didnt say that I agreed with you either, I just said I understood why you would be upset. I do not think the priesthood is a reward nor do I think women are being punished because they cannot be bishops. It would appear that the church is sexist from angry eyes. From ones of who understand their strength and self worth it is perfectly acceptable. Ha-ha I can hear you now: If the priesthood is not a reward why then can only wothry men hold it? Good question, although I believe coming from you it would be rhetorical. Well I have a question: Why do you see the priesthood as this high and mighty power. It is to help people. Help people who have faith in God not the church. The priesthood is only possessed by worthy men because unworthy men have no need or desire to have it. Their hearts are not in the right place and after repentance they recieve it again. They are not being rewarded, they are recieving a responsabilty. Are their women who would make fantastic Bishops? Absolutly! Why are they not it’s just not a place God wanted them. Not because they can’t handle it, but because their strength is better spent somewhere else. Why is this? I do not pretend to know all of God’s workings, I only know not what I have been taught but what I have discovered for myself.

  41. measure76 Says:

    Is a company that does not allow women to be supervisors or CEO’s sexist? Yes.

    Does the Mormon church get a free pass on this? No.

    Therefore, the mormon church is sexist.

    It’s really quite simple.

  42. Caitlin Says:

    Also, please excuse the many embarrassing typos. I got a little trigger happy.

  43. Caitlin Says:

    What a stretch 76. I didn’t realize that the corporate world was under the scrutiny of God. Of course the individuals are like everyone in the human race but obviously they way God runs his church is a little different. I don’t know why God acts as he does. You’re getting a little boring 76. This is sad because I was enjoying myself. Your anger is getting very old.

  44. measure76 Says:

    Oh, so it’s GOD that’s sexist? I can live with that. He’s evil anyway.

  45. Caitlin Says:

    Ha-ha oh my dear 76, thank you. Until now I didn’t realize how far someone could go when they have nothing but anger. Then again Hitler went pretty far. You have no facts at all 76 just anger, just twisting words into things they are not. You’re an adult grow up. Please stop resorting to such childish tactics.

  46. measure76 Says:

    You compare me to hitler, and then say I went too far?

    Pretty funny you should bring that up, seeing how Hitler was the leader of a totalitarian regime, and mormonism is also totalitarian.

    Of course, the whole point of your post was to try to ignore what I just proved, that your God is sexist.

  47. Caitlin Says:

    I didn’t say you went too far. I just stated that I was surprised that you came this far on nothing but anger. Then I thought, ” yes, I actually have heard of accounts of people that went far on nothing but anger, lacking education, rationality and other things that make for good conversation.” If you think God is sexist think away. Anyone with a rational mind free of brackish ideas would not go on rants saying God is sexist. I wonder why this bothers you so? I thought you had no god? But then again those who have no idea what they are talking about often use a double edged sword. I say often not every time. Also I’m not the only guitly party here. You often have changed subjects focusing on twisting a single sentence and totally ignoring my accounts which disprove you. But again angry people do that. On a personal note, may I ask as to why a devote LDS would change their opinions so drastically?

  48. measure76 Says:

    Because the truth set me free. I no longer must believe in a God, or in a prophet to lead me. I am my own man.

    Once you look at church claims critically, you too can be set free. I don’t expect you to be able to look at church claims critically, but just in case, here’s a list of major issues:

    http://en.wordpress.com/tag/evidence-against-mormonism/

  49. Caitlin Says:

    Of course I can and have done critical study. Regaurdless of any veiw I have of the church one thing that never disappoints is my faith in God. Call it what you want blindness or stupidity, I believe it to be neither. I am my own woman (sorry I thought you were a woman as well), my belief in God does not hinder me from being strong, smart, capable and free thinking. If saying there is no God is what makes you feel strong then you are in fact weak my enkindled friend.

  50. Caitlin Says:

    You know what? That was rude of me. You’re not a weak person, it takes strength of character to get on here and be so outspoken about something as taboo as atheism. I commend you.

  51. Caitlin Says:

    I still disagree, but I do commend.

  52. measure76 Says:

    Again with the insults! unbelieveable.

    I would at this point, since you bring up faith, ask you the same question I asked Krowe.

    What is it that leads you to believe that your God is more valid than other Gods, for example, Zues or Thor? What evidence do you have that separates your God from them?

  53. measure76 Says:

    I accept your apology.

  54. Caitlin Says:

    Thank you for accepting it. I have no evidence just my own belief and theory. It fact Zues God and Thor are all the same person as in they all play the same roll just in seperate religions. Does that make sense? I’m not sure if I explained myself correctly. Anyway I don’t think my God is more valid just valid to me.

  55. measure76 Says:

    Well, if all religions’ Gods are equally valid, do all religions not have access to proper authority and saving doctrines?

  56. Caitlin Says:

    Sorry, I’m afraid I don’t understand your question. Could you illuminate for me?

  57. measure76 Says:

    Well, you stated that all Gods are the same God. Many different Gods are worshipped today and throughout history.

    If all of these are the same God, and God is consistent, would it not follow, for instance, that each God that is worshiped also has a prophet on the earth today, and also that each of those prophets is a true prophet?

    This is only one example, one question that could be generated by your claim that all Gods are the same.

  58. Caitlin Says:

    Hmm I’m finding it hard to put it in to words. I don’t mean to say that all gods are the same. Obviously being christian I don’t believe that there is or ever was a god named Zues. What I mean to say that my god plays the same roll as the greek god Zues only in christianity. God and Zues have the same roll in two seperate religions. Like the CEO’s of two different companies. It is your religion that would determine which to put your faith in. As for the prophets, the LDS church does has a living prophet. I believe that any church with a prophet, prophetess, pope what-have-you believes that that individual is a true prophet of God. Again it just depends on the faith of your choice.

  59. measure76 Says:

    Zues certainly had his prophets at the time he was believed in. I think they called themselves oracles back then?

    But uh, are you saying that the Pope is a true prophet as well as Thomas Monson?

  60. Caitlin Says:

    The true prophet of that religion, yes. Whether that religion is God’s true church or not is based on the belief of the one practicing. I’m sure that God speaks the to the Pope as well as Thomas Monson. He is after all a praying man trying to do his job, which is to lead the people of the catholic faith. It is the same thing as repentance. As you know the church’s repentance process is very difficult, if a there was a religion where you had to jump up and down and sing to be forgiven but you were truly sorry I believe that you are forgiven. Rather its the LDS repentance process or jumping up and down that is the correct way, I believe that the person with the correct knowledge will be held to the higher standered. All the same both are forgiven. Rather this is how God sees it I’m not sure. I believe in a loving God and I dont think he would punish someone for trying their hardest to live the way they think He would want even if they missed the mark.

  61. measure76 Says:

    Ok, this is intersting, Caitlin.

    When Pressed, you feel that God will reward anyone for doing what they think is best. This I can agree with… or at least, I would have to agree with that sentiment if I believed there was a loving God…

    Unfortunately, your church of choice believes differently.

    LDS claims it is the one and only true and living church of God.

    LDS scripture claims all other churches are of Satan, and the followers of those, no matter how well intentioned, are going to hell.

    It looks like you and I could agree a ton about what God should be… but my beef is not with you specifically, it is with the LDS church, which is really, a more hateful religion than is potrayed by yourself.

    I would say that you are better than the LDS church.

  62. Caitlin Says:

    Ha-ha, it’s funny that you say that. Whenever I go to church I feel surrounded by people who are far better than I am. But thank you I was flattered by that statement.

    I do however very much agree that if you believed in a loving God we would have many a shared opinion of Him and how he works. Yes, it is very true that I have some very different opinions then the church does. but I don’t think it to be a hate group. Infact on the whole I see it to be one of the more tolerable religions even if they disagree with certain lifestyles.

    Yes, the church claims to the be one true church of God and I believe it is. This doesn’t mean I think all other religions are wrong, maybe just missing a few things. I’m sure you’re familiar with 1 Corinthians 15:40-41 which broken down means:

    The lowest kingdom is called the Telestial Kingdom. This will be the world all those who rejected Christ and never repented of their sins will go. The next highest is the Terrestrial Kingdom. This will be where those who accepted Christ, but didn’t endure to the end and never fulfilled all the saving ordinances will go. The highest kingdom, where God the Father lives, is called the Celestial Kingdom. This will be the world where all those who accepted Christ, endured to the end and received all the saving ordinances will go.

    Now that being said please, please do not think that I think you’re going to hell. I believe that God knows our hearts and will judge them.

    I married a non member and did not get married in the temple. Now, no matter how hard I pray or try to convert him (hypothetically speaking of course) because of his free will he may never become a member. Because of that I cannot recieve all the “saving ordinances” do I think I will be denied the Celestial kingdon for loving someone who was another faith? No. Hitler killed millions of people “in the name of God” I dont think God will hold an athiest who never hurt a soul in their life on the same level. The topic of faith VS works has been many a disagreement between my husband and I. I always win :).

  63. Caitlin Says:

    Good Lord I’m so sorry I didn’t realize how much I had written. :/

  64. rofl Says:

    well 76 you continue to be hilariously wrong and as i´ve seen so far, a complete idiot. as far as your last quote goes…you claim that the LDS church says that if you belong to a curch other than the lds church, you´re going to hell.

    This is of course completely false, as the LDS church firmly believes that ALL (meaning, every human being ever to live) people will be given a chance to accept the gospel of Jesus Christ, whether in this life or the next. this is also a direct contradiction to statements you´ve made in other areas on this site, where you talked about how the LDS church baptizes for the dead. so apparently you´re going to attack the church for baptizing for people that lived during a time period when the church wasn´t on the earth, but then you´re going to say that the church believes that those people (many of whom certainly belonged to other churches) are guaranteed to go to hell for not being part of the LDS church.

    You´re complete inability to say anything worthwhile continues to boggle my mind.

  65. rofl Says:

    also, as a side note, no where in the book of mormon does it say that every church but Gods church is of the devil. it merely describes the devils church. as a matter of fact theres a scripture in doctrine and covenants that specifically says that we are not to argue (while missionaries) against other churches UNLESS its the church of the devil, thus calling only ONE church Satans church, not all.

  66. rofl Says:

    I´m going to laugh when instead of countering my argument you attempt to insult me (as you almost always do)

  67. measure76 Says:

    You insult me, then state that insulting is wrong? amazing.

    Here you go though, Caitlin and rofl

    Book of Mormon, 1st Nephi, Chapter 14, Verse 10:

    “And he said unto me: Behold there are save two churches only; the one is the church of the Lamb of God, and the other is the church of the devil; wherefore, whoso belongeth not to the church of the Lamb of God belongeth to that great church which is the mother of abominations; and she is the whore of all the earth.”

    Now, Caitlin, I accept that you don’t take the Book of Mormon literally. If you want to be a cafeteria mormon, or New Order mormon, that’s fine with me.

    Rofl… you continue to amuse me.

  68. Caitlin Says:

    Ahhh…New Order Mormon???? I like it! :) It describes me perfectly. Anyway, 76 do you consider yourself an athiest or are you just “struggling with your beliefs”? Do you believe in no god period or are you just not christian?

  69. rofl Says:

    you still didnt answer your contradictory statements on this site. until you can answer that…your arguments (if you can call them that) are pretty much trash.

    i did not state that insulting was wrong, i said i´d laugh when you insulted me instead of answering me. i insulted you and show´d you WHY i was insulting you, insults, when proved to be true, state a persons character and are no longer really considered insults.

    as for your supposed argument about the church of the devil, grats on pulling the scripture out of context, how about you read the entire chapter.

  70. reading an idots rant Says:

    You know measure76, you give a new meaning to the word intolerance. You of all people in your great wisdom should know there is a huge difference in religion and the culture of that religion. You’re always going to run into imperfect, condescending, think they know it all assholes in life, (just like you) who treat others like crap, then cry when the same treatment is kicked back. Poor baby…. nothing is EVER your fault, is it?

  71. measure76 Says:

    Did you have a point, reading, or did you just come by to drop an insult?

  72. Colin Says:

    yeah I hear you man. personally( and I dare any Mormons to do anything about it)I HATE Mormons. yes I hate them. I was forced to be Mormon a big part of my life and you are right about all of that stuff. I knew someone who was gay and was told by Mormons that he had to marry and have sex with a woman in order to go to heaven dispite him being gay. all of the Mormons can deny it and say a bunch of shit about how you guys are the only way to happiness but when i was a Mormon (I’m an atheist now. people, do some research about evolution and watch Religious to find some REAL answers) all of the family’s I knew were insainly dysfunctional. the kids would be yelled at, hit, and were not given the stuff that they needed (had to feed themselves). forget about the hate Mormons use, and the lies they tell, but the fact that they have like 6-9 kids (which increase this already overly populated world) drive they’re big S.U.Vs (which help cause global warming) and how they try to stop abortions and stem cell research( that can help millions by getting them back missing legs or arms) then you can see that they have many problems with they’re religion/way of life. I dare you Mormons to give me hate mail. I will just laugh at the ‘points’ you try to make. my point is… if your gonna be a Mormon, don’t give a bunch of hate crap and try to make this world a better place. ‘God’ wouldn’t want that.

  73. Colin Says:

    oh lol i forgot. i don’t want spam from anybody though. its colinbrentbost@gmail.com

  74. Colin Says:

    i actually didn’t ask for any though. i dared but didn’t ask.

  75. Colin Says:

    haha ok you can i you want. i dont really care. oh and i knew that you were joking. just wanted to see if anyone would email me hate mail or anything like that. so far they havent

  76. White Raven Says:

    I dislike the Mormon church as well, and it is a cult. They read what they want and it becomes do as I say not as I do very quickly. The prophet no longer exists, the days of the prophets were fulfilled by Christ. If Christ has picked up the tab what need do we have for a prophet?

    As I read I did see something about homosexuals being equal. I have to disagree with that. The bible itself states that they are in-equal. Many people say the bible preaches tolerance, but that could be further from the truth. Homosexuality is an act against nature therefore against God. The way the bible describes it is this way. Homosexuality is a mortal sin, mortal sins can not be placed in the hands of man. They must be sent to God for judgment only God can place that judgment anyone else placing that judgment is guilty of that sin and the sin of taking God’s place. There is only one way to send someone to God last I checked the only way to stand before God is to die. Example an easy one for you. What happens if you kill somebody in cold blood? Let us just say they are guilty as hell. Most people think execution is eye for an eye tooth for a tooth, that is only half of it. They must be sent to God, they can not remain here. It is misery all around if they do, keep them alive and they may get out to harm again. people placing judgment on them whether they are guilty or innocent. It is God’s place.

    But I have to say though, this country was not found under God as we are so ignorantly told. It was founded by men that were secular. Hence the first amendment. So by the reasoning of church vs state, state would win and homosexuals do have the same rights as we non gay brothers. If church had its say they wouldn’t be here cause we would have killed them when they admitted they were gay as per bible instructs us to. Read Leviticus all of it.

    Also just to note, that includes new testament, I get a lot of new testament is different. You will find with homosexuality the law remains. I am not anti gay or anything, but you have to see the truth first. You can not say I am God fearing and accept homosexuality it just does not work. Just a thought

    I could very well be out of line, but I don’t think I am.

    • measure76 Says:

      The bible says we should murder unbelievers like myself. Does that mean we should?

      The bible actually has a lot of hateful messages, including the ones against homosexuals.

      I think it would be better for society if it is not used to make or influence laws.

      But let me ask you this: Without using the Bible as a guide, what is wrong about homosexuality?

  77. White Raven Says:

    Also for rofl isn’t any church on this earth the church of Satan? All I have ever been taught are lies. Isn’t Satan the lord of lies? Doesn’t an imperfect prophet lead us all astray from the truth? How can I obtain Christs truth if I have a man saying I have to go through him first? Even the core of the bible is riddled with untruth. All religion is false, but all spirituality will lead you to the truth.

    • measure76 Says:

      The truth can be found in the laboratory, through repeated experimentation, with scientifically valid results. Spirituality offers nothing approaching ‘truth’.

      • White Raven Says:

        I disagree with that. Science is just as fleeting in truth as spirituality is. creationism says the world is what like 6,000 years old science says it is millions of years old. I say why can not God affect evolution? maybe God is millions of years old. I never got why they think it is 6000 years old either, the bible says in the beginning God created the Heavens and the Earth, not 6000 years ago. God is a scientist, saying God knows everything is wrong too. He knows more but not everything, if he knew everything why test us? Why not kill Satan before the uprising?

        I would say I am more Agnostic, I believe spirituality is just as much needed as science. Science without spiritual fulfillment breeds war, Atomic bomb prime example. People too often think of the law rather than the reason for it.

        • measure76 Says:

          God is a scientist? What evidence do you base this claim on? Hell, what evidence do you base God’s existence on?

          Prove to me that God exists in a way that will also prove that Zeus does not.

  78. White Raven Says:

    Damn that was fast, the only thing I could come up with. I can’t say it is “wrong” just as one of them can not say it is “right”. I also can not say it is against nature. Because I honestly believe it is natures way of weeding out humanity. meaning breeding leads to critical mass, homosexuality stops the breeding process. A man can not get another man pregnant and a girl can not get another girl pregnant. The only time you will get me real iffy around homosexual behavior is when they take the perversion of artificial insemination and that like. To me that is sin, like octomom. Not cool and that is playing God whether he/she exists or not.

    I still believe in that natural order. I mean why can’t I make a unique little perfect race Hitler baby?

    I am not exactly against homosexuality, I am just pointing out that if you use the bible, by default you have to be against them.

    Many people do not get the bible though, like hell. Guess what hell really is? its death. I call atheists self fulfilling prophets. I have a few atheists friends and they get it. What happens if you die unclean? you die, you don’t exist anymore, God wipes you clean. you don’t burn in hell (as a fiery place) if God was merciful putting you to death is mercy, it ends the suffering.

    But it still sucks because if everlasting life does exist, you blew it. There is a whole bunch of crap like that people got wrong cause religion is lies. In fact when the bible talks about the whore, it is talking about religion all around. They Whore after Christ. Most of Christs teachings were warning people about religion. Go back and take a good look. Everything the dude was talking about, even if it is taken in the wrong context warns of people claiming to speak to God. He puts the smack down on the pharisee (aka religion).

    There are still some teachings I am weeding out, like what the soul is and what actually happens to you when you die. Anyway that is all I guess.

    • measure76 Says:

      Yes, but if there is no everlasting life, and you base your current life on some mythical theology, then you blew the only life you’ll ever get. So sorry for you.

      • White Raven Says:

        I would not say blew it. Think about it. The law set down makes sense. Whether God exists or not. having sex with your sister is bad, there is a law for that. However not all spiritualism runs on just Christianity. I myself mix shaman practice with not only the christian bible but some of the Hebrew mysticism. I believe in spirits. You are spirit, I am spirit, a tree is spirit grass is spirit. All life is made up of energy of some kind. You could call it whatever the science term is. The fact is you can not see that energy yet it exists. There is a lot of “magic” to the shaman practice but there is a lot of science to it too. Most of our discoveries through science has been spiritually motivated in some way.

        You should check out or study the Hopi prophecy. You will find a lot of it has truth. They talk of spider webs in the skies (electric and phone lines) black rivers consuming life (roads) centuries before we even came and destroyed all life here.

        We have lost our spiritual connection with nature, look where it has us. Even a none believer can see that. I can never argue that God exists just as you can never argue that he does not exist we can’t know really. it is a stale mate. We both win and we both lose.

        I had an atheist friend of mine accept one truth, whatever created the universe is God. Ye shall be as gods is my favorite verse in the bible. I believe there is some type of God because we in its image can manipulate nature. You have ideas of different dimensional existences. The point is I can not prove that God exist to you, just like you can not prove he does not exist to me. I am sure you here this one a lot, and yes I am going to use it, I can not see air yet I know its there, I can’t see viruses yet I get sick. Just because you can’t see it does not mean it does not exist.

  79. White Raven Says:

    Exactly my point, I can not know God exists just like you can’t know he doesn’t. It is a stalemate. I can never convince you that he does exist just like you can never convince me he does not. How we perceive reality is different. Maybe the color red to you is blue, I could never convince you that red is red and blue is blue cause you perceive blue as red.

    If you did believe in God, your God would be different from my God. Cause it is always based on perception. That is why I hate organized religion, not the idea of God. I also can not prove to you that spirits exist, but that is based on perception too. Like Peyote rituals, they change your perception of reality. Doing such a ritual to you may be just a simple hallucination. Whereas another person would believe that he was seeing the spirits.

    Sadly the only way to ever know there is a God is to die. Since death is inevitable. I personally do not think that a person that does not believe will go to hell as they say. I personally believe if there is a God and he is merciful he will give you a chance to amend. IF there is a spirit world beyond here. I believe you will have a chance to learn there if indeed there is a God.

    If there is not than well you die, and that is it. But I do not think pursuing God or spiritual completeness is a waste of life. As an atheist I am sure there are still morals in place, your not going to go around murdering people. So really for the most part you are keeping the laws intact. Since nobody is perfect in keeping the laws, you will be judged the same as me. That is life pursuing the truth we might not find it, but we can still try to figure it out. Your way is just different is all.

  80. White Raven Says:

    There very well could be a spaghetti monster that flies, have you ever seen it? I have not, but that does not mean it doesn’t exist. I will admit to you there is a lot of folk lore around Christianity though. For instance for me, if you were to say let God strike me down. Nothing happens you know why? Because in my belief God’s power is limited here. He can not affect will. In a sense he does not exist here, so your statement would be half right. But that does not mean God don’t exist. You are aware of the term imaginary space right? It is scientific, it is imaginary but it exists. This computer is in imaginary space. Why are we the only self aware beings on this planet? Evolutionary theory would state there would be more than one self aware being. To prove science is the all, we would have to find civilization before civilization.

    In fact do me a favor, get a king James bible. Take the lore you have learned and throw it out. Keep it only to compare what you knew to what you are going to know. Now read it and everything that looks like a story take it as that. This is the hard part, you are going to look at the bible with logic, even though God is illogical. Look at it not to prove there is a God. But to find the logic in the bible. brb

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