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		<title>Goodbye, Blogosphere!</title>
		<link>http://rfmorg.wordpress.com/2010/08/09/goodbye-bloggernacle/</link>
		<comments>http://rfmorg.wordpress.com/2010/08/09/goodbye-bloggernacle/#comments</comments>
		<pubDate>Mon, 09 Aug 2010 19:04:12 +0000</pubDate>
		<dc:creator>measure76</dc:creator>
				<category><![CDATA[Uncategorized]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[exmormon]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[exmormonism]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[Mormon]]></category>
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		<category><![CDATA[reddit]]></category>

		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://rfmorg.wordpress.com/?p=399</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Surely it&#8217;s been obvious for quite some time that this blog is dead, but I officially cut off comments on all the posts today, comments on this post will stay on for 30 days. This blog was a lot of fun, but I&#8217;ve moved on to Reddit for my work against mormonism. So, if you [...]<img alt="" border="0" src="http://stats.wordpress.com/b.gif?host=rfmorg.wordpress.com&#038;blog=3935824&#038;post=399&#038;subd=rfmorg&#038;ref=&#038;feed=1" width="1" height="1" />]]></description>
				<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Surely it&#8217;s been obvious for quite some time that this blog is dead, but I officially cut off comments on all the posts today, comments on this post will stay on for 30 days.</p>
<p>This blog was a lot of fun, but I&#8217;ve moved on to Reddit for my work against mormonism.</p>
<p>So, if you want to continue the party with me, come visit the greatest reddit for exmormons, <a href="http://exmormon.reddit.com">exmormon.reddit.com</a></p>
<p>Have a good one!</p>
<p>-Measure</p>
<br />  <a rel="nofollow" href="http://feeds.wordpress.com/1.0/gocomments/rfmorg.wordpress.com/399/"><img alt="" border="0" src="http://feeds.wordpress.com/1.0/comments/rfmorg.wordpress.com/399/" /></a> <img alt="" border="0" src="http://stats.wordpress.com/b.gif?host=rfmorg.wordpress.com&#038;blog=3935824&#038;post=399&#038;subd=rfmorg&#038;ref=&#038;feed=1" width="1" height="1" />]]></content:encoded>
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		<title>This calling pushed me over the edge and caused me to leave mormonism.</title>
		<link>http://rfmorg.wordpress.com/2009/08/11/this-calling-pushed-me-over-the-edge-and-caused-me-to-leave-mormonism/</link>
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		<pubDate>Tue, 11 Aug 2009 16:53:25 +0000</pubDate>
		<dc:creator>measure76</dc:creator>
				<category><![CDATA[Uncategorized]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[bishop]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[calling]]></category>
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		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://rfmorg.wordpress.com/?p=393</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[This is an epic thread from RFM. EPIC. What callings pushed you over the edge to leave mormonism? Read these, and post your own in the comments!   Subject: What &#8220;calling&#8221; pushed you over the edge??? Date: Aug 10 19:02 Author: Ben Ben Mail Address: After reading Primus&#8217; thread regarding the splits coordinator, I suddenly [...]<img alt="" border="0" src="http://stats.wordpress.com/b.gif?host=rfmorg.wordpress.com&#038;blog=3935824&#038;post=393&#038;subd=rfmorg&#038;ref=&#038;feed=1" width="1" height="1" />]]></description>
				<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>This is an epic thread from RFM. EPIC. What callings pushed you over the edge to leave mormonism? Read these, and post your own in the comments!</p>
<p><span id="more-393"></span></p>
<p> </p>
<table border="0">
<tbody>
<tr>
<td><em>Subject</em>:</td>
<td><strong>What &#8220;calling&#8221; pushed you over the edge???</strong></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td><em>Date</em>:</td>
<td><strong>Aug 10 19:02</strong></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td><em>Author</em>:</td>
<td><strong>Ben Ben</strong></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td><em>Mail Address</em>:</td>
<td><tt><a href="mailto:?subject=[exmobb_recovery] What &quot;calling&quot; pushed you over the edge???"></a></tt></td>
</tr>
</tbody>
</table>
<hr />
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<td bgcolor="#eeeeee">After reading Primus&#8217; thread regarding the splits coordinator, I suddenly had a flashback to my most favoritest calling ever&#8230;..SACRAMENT PASSER COORDINATOR!After 30 years in the church, no joke, this was the calling that about had me resign while I was still active!</p>
<p>My job was to simply make sure the sacrament was passed every week. But the Elders quorum presidency couldn&#8217;t even let that small of an assignment from being disected and corrected.</p>
<p>Somehow that little calling turned into an almost weekly lecturing about how I was doing it wrong.</p>
<p>For instance, it was highly inappropriate to send around a sign-up sheet &#8220;This is a church of assignment! Not volunteering!&#8221; So I stopped sending around the sign-up sheet.</p>
<p>So I then began calling the elders either the night before or the morning of church&#8211;we didn&#8217;t start until 1pm. But then I got called in for this too! Apparently my logic was faulty. Apparently it doesn&#8217;t make sense to call them the morning of church when they will be less likely to forget.</p>
<p>So I was told I needed to create a master list and assign 32-40 people to sign up for sacrament at the BEGINNING of the month! If I did this, THEN it was OK to make reminder calls the morning of church. I implemented this and, of course, the morning of church, I would find out that of the 8 elders needed, only 4 would be attending that day. So, as expected, I needed to make phone calls the morning of church or run around as the elders walked into the chapel to find enough people.</p>
<p>Then there was the routes that the elders were to take when passing the sacrament. I relied upon the routes I had used in my home ward. While there was no problem with my routes, I was chastised for my &#8220;map.&#8221; Yes, my map! I did mine nice and neat with a few short arrows to show who passes to which rows. &#8220;No no&#8230;.you must use this map!&#8221; The EQP had created their own map with sections of the chapel highlighted and color corrdinated with the passers. But they forgot to assign someone for the bishop and stand. When I pointed this out&#8230;wow! you would have thought that I just broke the news to them that their wives were cheating on them&#8230;such hurt on their faces&#8230;&#8221;Well, still, you should use our map.&#8221;</p>
<p>Eventually, I called them out on their crap. It was during a PPI and I told them that I had never had such problems with a calling as I have had with them and this tiny calling. The 2nd couselor for EQ started saying that the stake presidency wanted this and that and yaddah yaddah yaddah&#8230;..I think I was subconsciously starting my withdrawal from the church from this petty behavior. I still don&#8217;t know whether I believe their claim that it was the stake presidency who wanted all these things. Afterall, it WAS a BYU married ward&#8230;so it could be the EQP had such a well behaved ward that they were just LOOKING for something&#8230;.ANYTHING&#8230;.to correct and exercise authority over. Or it could literally be that the stake presidency wanted their mittens on even the smallest of callings&#8230;such as the calling that sent me on my way: Sacrament passer coordinator!</p>
<p>Thank GOD for morons!!!</td>
</tr>
</tbody>
</table>
<table border="0">
<tbody>
<tr>
<td><em>Subject</em>:</td>
<td><strong>Re: What &#8220;calling&#8221; pushed you over the edge??? ONE? the Bishop throwing a fit.!</strong></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td><em>Date</em>:</td>
<td><strong>Aug 10 19:05</strong></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td><em>Author</em>:</td>
<td><strong>SusieQ#1</strong></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td><em>Mail Address</em>:</td>
<td><tt></tt></td>
</tr>
</tbody>
</table>
<p><a name="N1249945507"></p>
<hr /></a></p>
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<td bgcolor="#eeeeee">Another one: the Bishop allowing a man to stay in the women&#8217;s rest room with his wife in a wheel chair, during meetings &#8211; hiding in the women&#8217;s child care area.<br />
That was my &#8220;Last Straw&#8221; &#8211; putting up with total nuts!</td>
</tr>
</tbody>
</table>
<table border="0">
<tbody>
<tr>
<td><em>Subject</em>:</td>
<td><strong>YW secretary (counselor, whatever)</strong></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td><em>Date</em>:</td>
<td><strong>Aug 10 19:56</strong></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td><em>Author</em>:</td>
<td><strong>OutontheFarm</strong></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td><em>Mail Address</em>:</td>
<td><tt><a href="mailto:?subject=[exmobb_recovery] YW secretary (counselor, whatever)"></a></tt></td>
</tr>
</tbody>
</table>
<p><a name="N1249948584"></p>
<hr /></a></p>
<table border="1" cellspacing="0" cellpadding="15" width="100%">
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<td bgcolor="#eeeeee">Being a convert, I had no idea of the brainwashing involved. When I realized my daughter would soon be joining this group, I knew I had to get out and take our family with me.</td>
</tr>
</tbody>
</table>
<table border="0">
<tbody>
<tr>
<td><em>Subject</em>:</td>
<td><strong>Ward Pianist</strong></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td><em>Date</em>:</td>
<td><strong>Aug 10 19:57</strong></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td><em>Author</em>:</td>
<td><strong>Louisa</strong></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td><em>Mail Address</em>:</td>
<td><tt><a href="mailto:?subject=[exmobb_recovery] Ward Pianist"></a></tt></td>
</tr>
</tbody>
</table>
<p><a name="N1249948649"></p>
<hr /></a></p>
<table border="1" cellspacing="0" cellpadding="15" width="100%">
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<tr valign="middle">
<td bgcolor="#eeeeee">I started piano lessons when I was five years old and, unlike my brothers, forced to continue until I was pretty good. Because of this, playing the piano had a lot to do with my church memories. When I was in young women I would rarely get to sit through all of young women&#8217;s because I would be pulled out to play in primary because someone didn&#8217;t show up. Of course, I would have to finish playing the songs in young women&#8217;s first.This continued to callings to play for Relief Society, choir, Sacrament meeting, etc. etc. From the time I was 14, until I was 24 all I did was play the piano. No other callings. I was sick of it. I loved to play the piano for myself but I was sick of having to play hymns and accompany people.</p>
<p>I moved to Washington and was in a terrible branch. The presidency was made of lecherous men who made my skin crawl especially one of the counselors who had chosen me to be extra touchy-feely with. Well, I was called to his office one day (this was after trying to avoid him for weeks) and he went on this huge spill about how the spirit had told him about this wonderful, amazing calling I would be thrilled to do.</p>
<p>(Before going to the meeting I had a feeling I would get a calling. I said a prayer pretty much saying, &#8220;God. If there really is a god, then I&#8217;ll be offered a calling that has nothing to do with playing the piano. Especially not sacrament meeting pianist.&#8221;)</p>
<p>You guessed it. Here I am sitting next to this disgusting man. His knee is pressed up against mine and all I keep thinking is, &#8220;I need to swim in lye after this.&#8221; He&#8217;s droning on and on how he&#8217;s received revelation and then he says, &#8220;Sacrament pianist.&#8221; I burst out laughing. Told him, &#8220;Hell, no.&#8221; Got up and never went back to the branch. (Although I did go home and shower.)</td>
</tr>
</tbody>
</table>
<table border="0">
<tbody>
<tr>
<td><em>Subject</em>:</td>
<td><strong>executive secretary . . .</strong></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td><em>Date</em>:</td>
<td><strong>Aug 10 20:13</strong></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td><em>Author</em>:</td>
<td><strong>Grubby Gert</strong></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td><em>Mail Address</em>:</td>
<td><tt><a href="mailto:?subject=[exmobb_recovery] executive secretary . . ."></a></tt></td>
</tr>
</tbody>
</table>
<p><a name="N1249949615"></p>
<hr /></a></p>
<table border="1" cellspacing="0" cellpadding="15" width="100%">
<tbody>
<tr valign="middle">
<td bgcolor="#eeeeee">nothing destroys a testimonkey like getting into the bishopric meetings and seeing how things really workfinding out who can&#8217;t get called to the new ward whatsit because of this, that or the other sin</p>
<p>finding out that some members actually just say, &#8220;no,&#8221; when they are asked to accept a calling</p>
<p>finding out that &#8220;inspiration&#8221; amounts to nothing more than putting the list of vacancies next to the list of availables</p>
<p>i really did feel bad for the RS prez though &#8211; she was a good friend of my ex and she was in tears when the bishop told her that so-and-so couldn&#8217;t be called to be in her presidency &#8211; the poor girl was distraught, &#8220;but the spirit told me to call her . . .&#8221;</p>
<p>oh, and to top it all off there was the pissing contest between bishops in our stake &#8211; EVERYTHING was a competition &#8211; valid TRs, attendance, tithing, FOs, you name it and we were competing with the other wards</p>
<p>no, scratch that &#8211; the bishop was competing with the other bishops for the &#8220;ass-kisser of the stake&#8221; award</p>
<p>it was everything i hated about my mission: numbers and reports and &#8220;goals&#8221; and make-work assignments</p>
<p>after 3 months it was all over for me . . .</td>
</tr>
</tbody>
</table>
<table border="0">
<tbody>
<tr>
<td><em>Subject</em>:</td>
<td><strong>Re: executive secretary . . . Oh, yes.</strong></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td><em>Date</em>:</td>
<td><strong>Aug 10 20:49</strong></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td><em>Author</em>:</td>
<td><strong>Matt</strong></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td><em>Mail Address</em>:</td>
<td><tt><a href="mailto:?subject=[exmobb_recovery] Re: executive secretary . . . Oh, yes."></a></tt></td>
</tr>
</tbody>
</table>
<p><a name="N1249951785"></p>
<hr /></a></p>
<table border="1" cellspacing="0" cellpadding="15" width="100%">
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<tr valign="middle">
<td bgcolor="#eeeeee">The Bishop who kept doing what HE wanted and hang the rules! (Often with bad consequences (but never for him) the High Councilman&#8217;s Group Leader who was an utter arse who knew everything, so would never listen to anyone else. The RS president who LOVED to gossip.I was released because I had this terrible habit of trying to have the meetings run by the book. That taught me a valuable lesson.</p>
<p>The next Exec Sec was released for pretty much the same reason.</td>
</tr>
</tbody>
</table>
<table border="0">
<tbody>
<tr>
<td><em>Subject</em>:</td>
<td><strong>I could handle nursery, but when toilet cleaning was assigned, it was over. nt</strong></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td><em>Date</em>:</td>
<td><strong>Aug 10 20:17</strong></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td><em>Author</em>:</td>
<td><strong>Topper</strong></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td><em>Mail Address</em>:</td>
<td><tt><a href="mailto:?subject=[exmobb_recovery] I could handle nursery, but when toilet cleaning was assigned, it was over. nt"></a></tt></td>
</tr>
</tbody>
</table>
<p><a name="N1249949837"></p>
<hr /></a></p>
<table border="1" cellspacing="0" cellpadding="15" width="100%">
<tbody>
<tr valign="middle">
<td bgcolor="#eeeeee"> </td>
</tr>
</tbody>
</table>
<table border="0">
<tbody>
<tr>
<td><em>Subject</em>:</td>
<td><strong>Ward clerk and EQP</strong></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td><em>Date</em>:</td>
<td><strong>Aug 10 20:31</strong></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td><em>Author</em>:</td>
<td><strong>Layne Staley</strong></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td><em>Mail Address</em>:</td>
<td><tt><a href="mailto:?subject=[exmobb_recovery] Ward clerk and EQP"></a></tt></td>
</tr>
</tbody>
</table>
<p><a name="N1249950686"></p>
<hr /></a></p>
<table border="1" cellspacing="0" cellpadding="15" width="100%">
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<tr valign="middle">
<td bgcolor="#eeeeee">EQP was the final straw. I wouldn&#8217;t and couldn&#8217;t put up with the BS anymore. I saw what I interpreted as the SEEDY underbelly of the Priesthood chain of command. I was spending so much time trying to do a good job, and the only &#8220;thanks&#8221; I got was constant reminders of what I &#8220;wasn&#8217;t&#8221; getting done. I was away from my family two to three nights a week, and then half the days on Saturday (moving people) and then for 6 hours or more on Sundays. This is abusive pain and simple. This isn&#8217;t even common decency.Here&#8217;s the kicker. When I told the STake guy that I was needing to be released, he told me&#8230;and I qoute &#8220;I think you are taking this calling too seriously&#8221;. REally?</p>
<p>Never again.</td>
</tr>
</tbody>
</table>
<table border="0">
<tbody>
<tr>
<td><em>Subject</em>:</td>
<td><strong>Re: Ward clerk and EQP</strong></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td><em>Date</em>:</td>
<td><strong>Aug 10 21:11</strong></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td><em>Author</em>:</td>
<td><strong>George</strong></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td><em>Mail Address</em>:</td>
<td><tt></tt></td>
</tr>
</tbody>
</table>
<p><a name="N1249953103"></p>
<hr /></a></p>
<table border="1" cellspacing="0" cellpadding="15" width="100%">
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<tr valign="middle">
<td bgcolor="#eeeeee">Webelos Leader. I know, its scouts, but the calling came from the bishop. I held the job for 2 years, I had approximately a dozen boys. I NEVER had an assistant.<br />
I was going through a divorce, living in a small apartment where meetings were<br />
sometimes held. We had outings. My truck w/ camper shell was loaded with kids frequently. When I demanded release, my bishop, without asking, try to sustain me to a higher up scout calling. I stood and voted against myself. The motion<br />
got quickly withdrawn (he did apologize). The new Webelos guy got 2 assistants immediately. I never felt the same toward the church.</td>
</tr>
</tbody>
</table>
<table border="0">
<tbody>
<tr>
<td><em>Subject</em>:</td>
<td><strong>young mens president nt</strong></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td><em>Date</em>:</td>
<td><strong>Aug 10 21:46</strong></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td><em>Author</em>:</td>
<td><strong>msa</strong></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td><em>Mail Address</em>:</td>
<td><tt><a href="mailto:?subject=[exmobb_recovery] young mens president nt"></a></tt></td>
</tr>
</tbody>
</table>
<p><a name="N1249955166"></p>
<hr /></a></p>
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<td bgcolor="#eeeeee">mainly as a result of seeing the inner workings of the bishopric at ward counsel etc.It become immediately apparent that there was something wrong, and my cozy world was blown to he@@.</td>
</tr>
</tbody>
</table>
<table border="0">
<tbody>
<tr>
<td><em>Subject</em>:</td>
<td><strong>Missionary. n/t</strong></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td><em>Date</em>:</td>
<td><strong>Aug 10 20:30</strong></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td><em>Author</em>:</td>
<td><strong>Makurosu</strong></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td><em>Mail Address</em>:</td>
<td><tt></tt></td>
</tr>
</tbody>
</table>
<p><a name="N1249950650"></p>
<hr /></a></p>
<table border="1" cellspacing="0" cellpadding="15" width="100%">
<tbody>
<tr valign="middle">
<td bgcolor="#eeeeee"> </td>
</tr>
</tbody>
</table>
<table border="0">
<tbody>
<tr>
<td><em>Subject</em>:</td>
<td><strong>Yep, same here. NT</strong></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td><em>Date</em>:</td>
<td><strong>Aug 11 10:20</strong></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td><em>Author</em>:</td>
<td><strong>innervessel</strong></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td><em>Mail Address</em>:</td>
<td><tt></tt></td>
</tr>
</tbody>
</table>
<p><a name="N1250000402"></p>
<hr /></a></p>
<table border="1" cellspacing="0" cellpadding="15" width="100%">
<tbody>
<tr valign="middle">
<td bgcolor="#eeeeee"> </td>
</tr>
</tbody>
</table>
<table border="0">
<tbody>
<tr>
<td><em>Subject</em>:</td>
<td><strong>sunday school secretary&#8230; and a long story</strong></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td><em>Date</em>:</td>
<td><strong>Aug 10 21:07</strong></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td><em>Author</em>:</td>
<td><strong>SweetZ</strong></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td><em>Mail Address</em>:</td>
<td><tt><a href="mailto:?subject=[exmobb_recovery] sunday school secretary... and a long story"></a></tt></td>
</tr>
</tbody>
</table>
<p><a name="N1249952841"></p>
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<td bgcolor="#eeeeee">&#8230; as a woman that&#8217;s the only calling in the sunday school I was allowed to hold&#8230; the president didn&#8217;t do a damn thing and I did pretty much everything&#8230; I also devised a method to keep an accurate attendance in our somewhat transient ward. I entered attendance on an excel spreadsheet and updated the membership monthly dropping those who left the ward and adding new members according to the membership list provided to me monthly by the ward clerk.The attendance in Sunday school was 28% which seemed about right for this singles ward&#8230; lot of people attending different wards, lots of &#8220;sacrament only&#8221; members, and lots of names of people who we have never seen.</p>
<p>The first counselor in the bishopric reviewed my report and changed the number from 28% to 78% which he felt was a &#8220;more accurate reflection&#8221; of our actual attendance. I showed him my numbers and how I arrived at the 28% to prove that there was no mathematical error&#8230; He simply said, that after prayerful consideration, the 78% was the accurate number.. He then asked me to sign the corrected report. I refused. I quit the calling. A few months later I started working on Sundays after I got a promotion at work. After missing church for three months, I called my hometeachers for a priesthood blessing (I was going in for surgery) My home teacher said that he wasn&#8217;t my home teacher anymore, but that he would be happy to give me the blessing&#8230; He then tried to find out who my home teacher was just so I would know and he came back and told me that my records had been transferred out of the ward&#8230;. after THREE MONTHS of &#8220;inactivity&#8221; I called the First counselor in the bishopric and he informed me that singles wards were for active members only and that my records had been sent along to the family ward&#8230; What BULLSHIT. I was actively receiving visiting and home teachers AND I was even still DOING my visiting teaching.. I just couldn&#8217;t make it to church for a while because of my work schedule.. This asshole just wanted rid of me.. to this day I still don&#8217;t know if he sent my records away to cut out dead weight from the ward or if it was personal because I refused to sign his falsified document.</td>
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<td><em>Subject</em>:</td>
<td><strong>well, 28% IS 78% if you have the spirit &amp; squint your eyes,</strong></td>
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<td><em>Date</em>:</td>
<td><strong>Aug 11 10:17</strong></td>
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<td><em>Author</em>:</td>
<td><strong>nonmemberfriend</strong></td>
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<td><em>Mail Address</em>:</td>
<td><tt><a href="mailto:?subject=[exmobb_recovery] well, 28% IS 78% if you have the spirit &amp; squint your eyes,"></a></tt></td>
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<p><a name="N1250000268"></p>
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<td bgcolor="#eeeeee">really really hard, pray, and WANT it enough. You just lacked faith.</td>
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<td><em>Subject</em>:</td>
<td><strong>I really hated working in the YW progam</strong></td>
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<td><em>Date</em>:</td>
<td><strong>Aug 10 22:15</strong></td>
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<td><em>Author</em>:</td>
<td><strong>Kirsten</strong></td>
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<td><em>Mail Address</em>:</td>
<td><tt><a href="mailto:?subject=[exmobb_recovery] I really hated working in the YW progam"></a></tt></td>
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<p><a name="N1249956940"></p>
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<td bgcolor="#eeeeee">Because I teach HS, I guess they thought it was a natural calling for me. I mean, I&#8217;m around HS kids all week long, might as well be around them on Sunday too. Ugh.I hated everything about it. The activities were lame and the other leaders wanted to &#8220;groom&#8221; the girls to be little molly mos. I couldn&#8217;t handle it.</td>
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<td><em>Subject</em>:</td>
<td><strong>Re: What &#8220;calling&#8221; pushed you over the edge???</strong></td>
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<td><em>Date</em>:</td>
<td><strong>Aug 10 22:26</strong></td>
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<td><em>Author</em>:</td>
<td><strong>Maggie</strong></td>
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<td><em>Mail Address</em>:</td>
<td><tt><a href="mailto:?subject=[exmobb_recovery] Re: What &quot;calling&quot; pushed you over the edge???"></a></tt></td>
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<p><a name="N1249957600"></p>
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<td bgcolor="#eeeeee">Gospel Doctrine teacher</td>
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<td><em>Subject</em>:</td>
<td><strong>Maggie, mine also was Gospel Doctrine teacher. What&#8230;</strong></td>
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<td><em>Date</em>:</td>
<td><strong>Aug 10 23:12</strong></td>
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<td><em>Author</em>:</td>
<td><strong>Elizabeth</strong></td>
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<td><em>Mail Address</em>:</td>
<td><tt><a href="mailto:?subject=[exmobb_recovery] Maggie, mine also was Gospel Doctrine teacher. What..."></a></tt></td>
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<td bgcolor="#eeeeee">in particular sent you over the edge?Mine was the inconsistency of the temple version of the creation and the biblical version. Then I started reading the &#8216;sources&#8217; of the quotes which the manual said wasn&#8217;t necessary. What I found was so incredible that I could hardly believe what the prophets had said and done historically.</p>
<p>Another gospel doctrine teacher called me toward the end of my discoveries and started to ask me similar questions about what she was discovering. I told her that unless she wants to accept what she finds, she shouldn&#8217;t investigate further.</p>
<p>I don&#8217;t know what she decided to do as I never talked with her again.</p>
<p>I left and haven&#8217;t been back for almost 5 years. Sundays are so truly relaxing and beautiful now.</td>
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<td><em>Subject</em>:</td>
<td><strong>Unsupervised study of the gospel will ruin any testimony-study only what you&#8217;re told&#8230;.n/t</strong></td>
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<tr>
<td><em>Date</em>:</td>
<td><strong>Aug 11 00:39</strong></td>
</tr>
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<td><em>Author</em>:</td>
<td><strong>confused</strong></td>
</tr>
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<td><em>Mail Address</em>:</td>
<td><tt><a href="mailto:?subject=[exmobb_recovery] Unsupervised study of the gospel will ruin any testimony-study only what you"></a></tt></td>
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<p><a name="N1249965544"></p>
<hr /></a></p>
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<td bgcolor="#eeeeee"> </td>
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<td><em>Subject</em>:</td>
<td><strong>Over the years I think the #1 has been Gosp Doc. nt</strong></td>
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<td><em>Date</em>:</td>
<td><strong>Aug 11 01:04</strong></td>
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<td><em>Author</em>:</td>
<td><strong>Susan I/S</strong></td>
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<td><em>Mail Address</em>:</td>
<td><tt></tt></td>
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<p><a name="N1249967070"></p>
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<td bgcolor="#eeeeee"> </td>
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<td><em>Subject</em>:</td>
<td><strong>One word, Anal. n/t</strong></td>
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<td><em>Date</em>:</td>
<td><strong>Aug 10 22:40</strong></td>
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<td><em>Author</em>:</td>
<td><strong>LOG</strong></td>
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<td><em>Mail Address</em>:</td>
<td><tt><a href="mailto:?subject=[exmobb_recovery] One word, Anal. n/t"></a></tt></td>
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<p><a name="N1249958407"></p>
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<td bgcolor="#eeeeee"> </td>
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<td><em>Subject</em>:</td>
<td><strong>Baked Potato Coordinator</strong></td>
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<td><em>Date</em>:</td>
<td><strong>Aug 10 22:48</strong></td>
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<td><em>Author</em>:</td>
<td><strong>Curious Workmanship</strong></td>
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<tr>
<td><em>Mail Address</em>:</td>
<td><tt><a href="mailto:?subject=[exmobb_recovery] Baked Potato Coordinator"></a></tt></td>
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<p><a name="N1249958934"></p>
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<td bgcolor="#eeeeee">Okay, this wasn&#8217;t my calling, but it was my roomate&#8217;s, and she was so proud of it. When she announced her new calling to me and her brother (my fiance at the time) I burst out laughing asking if it was a joke. She was seriously offended! It was a singles ward and we had a &#8220;break the fast&#8221; baked potato buffet (buffet, not BAR) every fast Sunday. I still think it&#8217;s funny.My DH and I were called to be &#8220;Mormon Telemarketers.&#8221; At least, that&#8217;s what we called it. Magazine reps. Whatever. I knew who would do the calling, and it wasn&#8217;t DH, so I said &#8220;no way.&#8221;</p>
<p>Thanks for the thread, I needed a good laugh!</td>
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<td><em>Subject</em>:</td>
<td><strong>Re: Baked Potato Coordinator</strong></td>
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<td><em>Date</em>:</td>
<td><strong>Aug 11 10:18</strong></td>
</tr>
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<td><em>Author</em>:</td>
<td><strong>nonmemberfriend</strong></td>
</tr>
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<td><em>Mail Address</em>:</td>
<td><tt><a href="mailto:?subject=[exmobb_recovery] Re: Baked Potato Coordinator"></a></tt></td>
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<p><a name="N1250000328"></p>
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<td bgcolor="#eeeeee">that is too funny!</td>
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<td><em>Subject</em>:</td>
<td><strong>My calling was &#8220;home teacher&#8221;</strong></td>
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<td><em>Date</em>:</td>
<td><strong>Aug 11 00:27</strong></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td><em>Author</em>:</td>
<td><strong>beeblequix</strong></td>
</tr>
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<td><em>Mail Address</em>:</td>
<td><tt></tt></td>
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<p><a name="N1249964838"></p>
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<td bgcolor="#eeeeee">I remember trying to use the manipulation, er, commitment pattern principles and skills on an inactive lady to try to get her to see how her life would improve by taking her and her son to church for three hours on Sunday to sit in some stuffy, boring place listening to people drone on and on about paying 10% for your salvation as if it wasn&#8217;t a giant cash grab from the ignorant, where everyone is phony and nobody really likes each other but pretends to out of fear or reprisal from Skydaddy with a known itchy trigger finger, instead of them going shopping, or to the movies, or spending quality time together&#8230;. Somehow I couldn&#8217;t understand why their way of spending time together and saving what small funds they had for their humble meals and small activities made more sense on every level when compared to mine &#8212; 3 hours of meetings, home teaching, studying lessons, avoiding movies, books and websites broadly labeled &#8220;antimormon&#8221; or &#8220;non-faith-promoting&#8221;, cramming 7 day&#8217;s worth of life into 6 days so I can bust my ass on the day I was supposed to be resting so I could run through the Mormon Minefield of Guilt again and again, never being good enough, never able to repent enough or go to enough church meetings to finally beat the poison out of me, because within just milliseconds I&#8217;ve already committed yet another sin whether by omission or commission&#8230;.It just didn&#8217;t make any sense &#8212; almost like I had it all backwards (impossible, I know).Imagine my astonishment when I was able to see from the outside of the Mormon Mind Cage and all I had to do was accept the destruction of most social relationships and seriously strained some others. I may have a twisted view of Mormonism but it doesn&#8217;t make it less valid than the average person &#8212; just contains more clear recollections of how ass-backwards the whole thing is. There should be contraindications read from the pulpit every week warning everyone who joins that non-whitewashed knowledge of Mormon history will severely damage their psyche, that many who are called and can&#8217;t handle the constant trips up &amp; down Kimball&#8217;s ladder of repentance end up with mental health issues, with lost opportunities, with retarded social skills, with significantly less common sense than their non-mormon peers, with guilt complexes over the most otherwise normal things, with infantile superstitions and completely unreasonable expectations. For any supposed good thing Mormonism does it pays that back a hundredfold in bad things.</p>
<p>Just my .000002 cents.</td>
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<td><em>Subject</em>:</td>
<td><strong>Beeblequix, you said it so well!!</strong></td>
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<td><em>Date</em>:</td>
<td><strong>Aug 11 00:57</strong></td>
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<td><em>Author</em>:</td>
<td><strong>JBug</strong></td>
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<td><em>Mail Address</em>:</td>
<td><tt><a href="mailto:?subject=[exmobb_recovery] Beeblequix, you said it so well!!"></a></tt></td>
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<p><a name="N1249966635"></p>
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<td bgcolor="#eeeeee">I completely understand&#8230;looks like our church experiences were a lot alike.<br />
I especially like the line about cramming 7 days worth of life into 6!!!Those inactive people had it right the whole time.</td>
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<td><em>Subject</em>:</td>
<td><strong>Stake Mission Presidency secretary. I created and administered . . .</strong></td>
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<td><em>Date</em>:</td>
<td><strong>Aug 11 01:00</strong></td>
</tr>
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<td><em>Author</em>:</td>
<td><strong>robertb</strong></td>
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<td><em>Mail Address</em>:</td>
<td><tt></tt></td>
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<p><a name="N1249966800"></p>
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<td bgcolor="#eeeeee">a training program for ward missionaries. Then it occurred to me I didn&#8217;t believe any longer. So, I explained this to members of the Stake Mission Presidency, who were my friends and I liked, resigned the calling, and began the short period of inactivity that preceding my resignation.</td>
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<td><em>Subject</em>:</td>
<td><strong>it was theaching 16 to 18 year olds</strong></td>
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<tr>
<td><em>Date</em>:</td>
<td><strong>Aug 11 01:35</strong></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td><em>Author</em>:</td>
<td><strong>TopoJoeJoe</strong></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td><em>Mail Address</em>:</td>
<td><tt></tt></td>
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<p><a name="N1249968901"></p>
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<td bgcolor="#eeeeee">We had the worst ward ever, and I was the 5th teacher called to teach these 16-18 year olds in less than one year. I foolishly accepted. I worked full time, went to night school, volunteered with Women Immigrants in the workforce, and stayed up till the early morning hours to prepare the lessons for the class. It was such horribly boring material and I was trying so hard to get these kids to listen and be interested.<br />
I was in the middle of a class one day, asking someone to read this scripture (hahaha, right, scripture), when they just started tossing the BOM from one person to the next. I sat down, and a bright light clicked, of course these kids don&#8217;t want to listen to this nonsense! Why am I teaching them about some bullshit prophet like I know him personally and could vouch for his character? After a while the kids all noticed I was sitting not saying anything. Then I put all my manuals on the floor, got up and walked out of class. I got my husband, and we both never, ever went back.<br />
Oh yeah.. just the week before the bishop had me give a talk about keeping the sabbath even while you are away on vacation (you should go to church even if you are camping people! &#8211; make sure to pack that suit, and plenty of spook underwears).</td>
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<td><em>Subject</em>:</td>
<td><strong>When they called me and my husband to set up the overflow chairs for a year. language</strong></td>
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<td><em>Date</em>:</td>
<td><strong>Aug 11 01:43</strong></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td><em>Author</em>:</td>
<td><strong>tngal</strong></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td><em>Mail Address</em>:</td>
<td><tt><a href="mailto:?subject=[exmobb_recovery] When they called me and my husband to set up the overflow chairs for a year. language"></a></tt></td>
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<p><a name="N1249969405"></p>
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<td bgcolor="#eeeeee">They promised that the priest would help us&#8230; oh and our ward started at 8:30 in the morning&#8230; no priest after a few weeks of doing it they finally told us no one was going to help us. The great thing was only like 20 people sat in them for our ward but they wanted us to set up 150 for the other 3 wards that shared our building.<br />
We missed one morning out of a whole year and they called us to complain, i was soo pissed i almost didn&#8217;t do it anymore. We couldn&#8217;t get anyone to cover that day for us.. go figure. well whatever im done now.<br />
Oh yeah and the entire five years we lived there they never gave my husband any other calling and the first two years we lived there they stuck me in the nursery. FOR TWO FUCKING YEARS!!!<br />
When they finally released me, women in the ward wanted to know where i had just moved from to be in the ward.</td>
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<td><em>Subject</em>:</td>
<td><strong>Re: What &#8220;calling&#8221; pushed you over the edge???</strong></td>
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<td><em>Date</em>:</td>
<td><strong>Aug 11 08:22</strong></td>
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<td><em>Author</em>:</td>
<td><strong>Crathes</strong></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td><em>Mail Address</em>:</td>
<td><tt><a href="mailto:?subject=[exmobb_recovery] Re: What &quot;calling&quot; pushed you over the edge???"></a></tt></td>
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<p><a name="N1249993350"></p>
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<td bgcolor="#eeeeee">Gospel Doctrine Teacher was my favorite! I hit for the cycle (four years &#8211; all books). I never used the manual, just taught from the source. I was honest, and pointed out issues and problems. I can&#8217;t remember how many people would say things like, &#8220;Well, my seminary teacher told me&#8230;&#8221; These people are 40+ years old and they still quote a semiary teacher? I would prove from the scriptures where the teacher was wrong. Also, I planted lots of questions in people&#8217;s minds. Did a lot of studying, and that&#8217;s what has led me to look for the exit.</td>
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<td><em>Subject</em>:</td>
<td><strong>EQ Prez was a real hard time</strong></td>
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<td><em>Date</em>:</td>
<td><strong>Aug 11 09:11</strong></td>
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<td><em>Author</em>:</td>
<td><strong>confused</strong></td>
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<td><em>Mail Address</em>:</td>
<td><tt><a href="mailto:?subject=[exmobb_recovery] EQ Prez was a real hard time"></a></tt></td>
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<p><a name="N1249996302"></p>
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<td bgcolor="#eeeeee">They split the ward, and several families disappeared along with my Elders, and new High Priests were needed leaving a half dozen actives in the Quorum including me and my councilors.About that time, they got a new Bishop who was a jerk. His idea of leadership was to expect it to be done with no input(except to issue orders) or support from him. Also at this time the Stake decided that we needed to get ALL of the families visited which in our decimated Q meant giving people 14 or more families. This sparked a lot of behind my back criticism, to which I was fully supportive.</p>
<p>Then my 2C went inactive, and later my 1C got married leaving me with only my 4 Elders. Our inability to pick up the slack was a thorn in the Bishops side. Apparently, we weren&#8217;t faithful enough to now have 18 people on our lists and visit them, so I gave up. You guys visit who you can, and let the Bishop have the inactives. I will not hold you accountable for this unattainable goal.</p>
<p>When I was released three years later, I was overjoyed. And once the meeting was over, I let the Stake councilor know in writing just what a horrible experience it was to work with that Bishop.</p>
<p>Two years later I was called to be that Bishops councilor during a time when there was a lot of heavy turmoil at home with teen/police trouble, and extensive hospitalization, and I really needed to be home instead of countless meetings and functions.</p>
<p>The Bishop released my wife as Primary teacher, saying that she would need more time to support me in my calling.</p>
<p>Hard to believe I endured it all.</td>
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<td><em>Subject</em>:</td>
<td><strong>Ward Mission Leader</strong></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td><em>Date</em>:</td>
<td><strong>Aug 11 09:33</strong></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td><em>Author</em>:</td>
<td><strong>Hopi Bon!</strong></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td><em>Mail Address</em>:</td>
<td><tt><a href="mailto:?subject=[exmobb_recovery] Ward Mission Leader"></a></tt></td>
</tr>
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<p><a name="N1249997638"></p>
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<td bgcolor="#eeeeee">During a Stake meeting it was suggested that I invite my non-Christian Korean neighbors from two doors down to a bbq at my house. The Stake would make sure the missionaries would happen to stop by at the same time. How convenient.When I said I wouldn&#8217;t do it I was asked &#8220;Why do you think they moved here? (I live in Mormon central). I explained that he is a computer programmer, which ten years ago where I live there were two major software companies.</p>
<p>They said I needed to follow the spirit and that&#8217;s when I told them that I quit.</td>
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<td><em>Subject</em>:</td>
<td><strong>Re: What &#8220;calling&#8221; pushed you over the edge???</strong></td>
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<td><em>Date</em>:</td>
<td><strong>Aug 11 10:09</strong></td>
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<td><em>Author</em>:</td>
<td><strong>bolok the ancient</strong></td>
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<td><em>Mail Address</em>:</td>
<td><tt><a href="mailto:?subject=[exmobb_recovery] Re: What &quot;calling&quot; pushed you over the edge???"></a></tt></td>
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<td bgcolor="#eeeeee">Why would Elder&#8217;s?<br />
The sacrament preparation/blessing/PASSING belongs to Aronic priesthood!</td>
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<td><em>Subject</em>:</td>
<td><strong>Unless your at BYU and their are no aaronic P&#8217;s just 1000 children under 2 n/t</strong></td>
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<td><em>Date</em>:</td>
<td><strong>Aug 11 10:20</strong></td>
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<td><em>Author</em>:</td>
<td><strong>tngal</strong></td>
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<td><em>Mail Address</em>:</td>
<td><tt><a href="mailto:?subject=[exmobb_recovery] Unless your at BYU and their are no aaronic P"></a></tt></td>
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<td><em>Subject</em>:</td>
<td><strong>Re: What &#8220;calling&#8221; pushed you over the edge???</strong></td>
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<td><em>Date</em>:</td>
<td><strong>Aug 11 11:52</strong></td>
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<td><em>Author</em>:</td>
<td><strong>CosmoMcK</strong></td>
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<td><em>Mail Address</em>:</td>
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<td bgcolor="#eeeeee">The calling that did it for me was ward clerk. We had just moved into a ward somewhere in rural America, and I was looking for a job, fresh out of the military, wondering what I was going to do, etc. I had a lot of concerns. The bishop hit me up about being the ward clerk, which I politely declined, stating that I had a lot of other stuff bearing down on me. The jerk then asks me if I&#8217;m morally clean! I was shocked, but said yes, I am, but I want to get a job first and get into a situation where I can take care of my family. He told me to pray about it and we would talk the next week.The next week, it was the same thing. He reminded me of te covenants I had made, stating that turning down a calling from him was the same as turning down a calling from the Lord. Well I turned him down again.</p>
<p>This went on every time I saw the bishop for almost two months, and it got unbearable for me to even go to church. so I stopped going. That was the last time I ever set foot in that church. My wife (at the time) told me that if she had to decide between me or the church, she would choose the church, and our marriage went downhill from there. We were shortly divorced.</p>
<p>It was interesting to see the arm twisting a bishop would go through to get someone to accept a calling. He used spiritual blackmail, in stating that I was covenanted to accept or it would have spiritual consequences. He immediately jumped to me not being morally clean, simply because I didn&#8217;t feel that I could handle the added pressure of the calling at that time. I can&#8217;t prove it 100%, but I think the bishop was using my wife against me. Also, the &#8220;pray about it until you see things my way&#8221; was too much.</p>
<p>That was the calling that broke the camel&#8217;s back for me. The next time I went to that church was to tape me resignation letter to the door. I felt kinda like Martin Luther, but the simple truth is that I didn&#8217;t have tha mailing address to the church.</td>
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		<title>Joseph Smith&#8217;s neighbors testify of his character</title>
		<link>http://rfmorg.wordpress.com/2009/08/07/joseph-smiths-neighbors-testify-of-his-character/</link>
		<comments>http://rfmorg.wordpress.com/2009/08/07/joseph-smiths-neighbors-testify-of-his-character/#comments</comments>
		<pubDate>Fri, 07 Aug 2009 16:14:12 +0000</pubDate>
		<dc:creator>measure76</dc:creator>
				<category><![CDATA[Church History]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[Evidence against mormonism]]></category>
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		<category><![CDATA[steve benson]]></category>

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		<description><![CDATA[I may be bringing this blog out of retirement to oppose examiner.com&#8217;s Greg West, or rather, his columns.  Since making that decision, I haven&#8217;t been motivated to actually oppose the articles he&#8217;s written, but watch for that series. In the meantime, I have found some new information about the character of Joseph Smith, according to his [...]<img alt="" border="0" src="http://stats.wordpress.com/b.gif?host=rfmorg.wordpress.com&#038;blog=3935824&#038;post=391&#038;subd=rfmorg&#038;ref=&#038;feed=1" width="1" height="1" />]]></description>
				<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I may be bringing this blog out of retirement to oppose examiner.com&#8217;s Greg West, or rather, his columns.  Since making that decision, I haven&#8217;t been motivated to actually oppose the articles he&#8217;s written, but watch for that series.</p>
<p>In the meantime, I have found some new information about the character of Joseph Smith, according to his neighbors, before he became famous.</p>
<p>Did I mention the Mormon church has tried to suppress this information?</p>
<p>This information comes via Steve Benson, at RfM:</p>
<p><span id="more-391"></span></p>
<p>Rodger I. Anderson, in his book, &#8220;Joseph Smith&#8217;s New York Reputation Re-Examined&#8221; (Salt Lake City, Utah: Signature Books, 1990), tackles the significant number of legal affidavits (over 80) that were sworn out against the character and conduct of Joseph Smith&#8217;s by his neighbors, associates and fellow citizens of New York state.</p>
<p>THE DAMNING NATURE OF THE AFFIDAVITS AGAINST JOSEPH SMITH</p>
<p>Anderson (who provides exact copies of the affidavits as well as other statements and interview) describes the affidavits&#8217; contents, which were originally published by Eber D. Howe in his book, &#8220;Mormonism Unvailed&#8221; (Painseville, Ohio: Eber D. Howe, printer and publisher, 1834):</p>
<p>&#8220;In affidavit after affidavit the young Smith was depicted as a liar and self-confessed fraud, a cunning and callous knave who delighted in nothing so much as preying upon the credulity of his neighbors.</p>
<p>“A money digger by profession, Smith spent his nights and his days lounging about the local grocery story entertaining his fellow tipplers with tales of midnight enchantments and bleeding ghosts, the affidavits maintained. . . .</p>
<p>“In a statement dated 4 December 1833 and signed by 51 residents of Palmyra, New York, Smith was described as being ‘entirely destitute of moral character, and addicted to vicious habits.’”</p>
<p>Moreover, Smith, as noted by Anderson, was portrayed by his affidavit-signing critics as being &#8220;animated by no loftier purpose than the love of money&#8221;&#8211;&#8221;a money digger who told marvelous tales of enchanted treasure and infernal spirits.&#8221;</p>
<p>(Anderson, pp. 2-3, 8)<br />
_____</p>
<p>REACTION BY SMITH TO THE AFFIDAVITS: DENOUNCING THEM AS THE WORK OF THE DEVIL</p>
<p>Anderson describes Smith&#8217;s desperate response to the release of the troublesome affidavits:</p>
<p>&#8220;Once published in 1834 [after being collected by Dr. Philastus Hurlbut, 'a one-time Mormon who was excommunicated in 1833 for, among other things, saying "that he deceived Joseph Smith's God, or the spirit by which he was actuated"'], Hurlbut&#8217;s affidavits became especially dangerous to the newly founded church and its leader.</p>
<p>“To defuse the potentially explosive documents, Smith read them aloud at public meetings, denouncing them as the work of Satan. More importantly, Hurlbut&#8217;s affidavits stimulated Smith to publish the first official history of the new church, &#8216;Early Scenes and Incidents in the Church,&#8217; authored by Smith&#8217;s closest associate at the time, Oliver Cowdery.&#8221;</p>
<p>(Anderson, pp. 2-3)<br />
_____</p>
<p>FAILURE OF EARLY SMITH APOLOGISTS TO EFFECTIVELY DENY THE AFFIDAVITS</p>
<p>Anderson reports on an &#8220;ambitious&#8221; attempt by William and E.L. Kelley to refute the affidavits&#8211;claiming in their own published report that they &#8220;could find virtually no one who knew anything firsthand against the Smiths and a number who remembered the family as being quite respectable.&#8221;</p>
<p>In this effort, the Kelleys produced less than impressive results.</p>
<p>The credibility of the Kelley claims were strongly disputed by even some of those to whom the Kelleys spoke during their dubious effort to build a chase for Smith.</p>
<p>Anderson, for instance, reports that &#8220;[a]t least three of those interviewed were so incensed with the published [Kelley] report that they produced affidavits of their own charging the Kelleys with misrepresentation.”</p>
<p>The complaints included Palmyra resident John H. Gilbert, who according to Gilbert’s affidavit on file in the clerk’s office of Ontario County, New Jersey, responded by appearing before a judge to state that he was “designedly” and “grossly misrepresented in almost every particular . . . .” Along with the affidavits of others, Gilbert’s complaint was subsequently published in local area newspapers.</p>
<p>(Anderson, pp. 5-6, 8)<br />
_____</p>
<p>TAKING ON THE AFFIDAVIT ATTACKERS</p>
<p>Anderson notes that Mormon apologist Hugh Nibley, in his 1961 book, “The Myth Makers” (Salt Lake City, Utah: Bookcraft, p. 6)—together with fellow Mormon defender Richard L. Anderson, in his 1970 article, “Joseph Smith’s New York Reputation Reappraised” (“Brigham Young University Studies,” 10, pp. 283-314)&#8211;have attempted “to discredit the Smith family neighbors.”</p>
<p>Nibley contends that the affidavit signers “told the best stories they could think of, without particularly caring whether they were true or not” (brushing them off as “trumped-up evidence”).</p>
<p>Richard L. Anderson claims that the Kelley report was supposedly more objective and based on positive testimony from people who claimed to have known the Smiths personally.</p>
<p>Roger I. Anderson remains unpersuaded by such apologetic efforts.</p>
<p>Roger I. Anderson exhibits particular disdain for the tactics of Nibley, whom he regards essentially as an unprofessional hit man for Smith. His list of academic crimes against Nibley are substantive.</p>
<p>&#8211;First, Anderson says Nibley’s book suffers from the “unqualified scope of its generalization” in concluding that because he claims to have found “some writers who were lass than careful with the truth, . . . all such writers must have been similarly careless, a conclusion that is simply not justified.”</p>
<p>&#8211;Second, Anderson says that Nibley’s book is characterized by its “use of arguments which are non sequiturs.”</p>
<p>&#8211;Third, Anderson notes that Nibley is ‘mistaken when he charges that those who testified to Smith’s character were themselves disreputable,” rebutting Nibley by pointing out that “[w]itnessing a deed is not the same as committing it, and hearing a man boast of some act does not necessitate participation in it.” Anderson further points out that “[e]ven if it could be demonstrated that Smith’s accusers were in fact involved in the same practices they related, it would not mean their testimony was for that reason suspect. Defending the accused by pointing to the imperfections of their accusers is fallacious and only serves to deflect attention from the original issue.”</p>
<p>&#8211;Fourth, Anderson point out what he calls “[a]nother significant defect of Nibley’s analysis”—namely, “its frequent high-handedness in dealing with testimony unfavorable to Smith. Rather than consider whether similar testimony from more than one person might indicate that what they report is true, Nibley often dismisses the topic with flippant and unsupported assertions.”</p>
<p>&#8211;Fifth, Anderson criticizes Nibley’s repeated charge that Smith is supposedly the victim of exaggerated hearsay by noting that Nibley makes that unconvincing charge through the use of selective quotations and historically uninformed assumptions.</p>
<p>&#8211;Sixth, Anderson notes that Nibley’s “Myth Makers” is “marred by numerous factual errors, exacerbated by “a tendency to suppress information potentially harmful to traditional interpretations of the Mormon past.” Anderson goes so far as to say that “Nibley’s suppression of vital information . . . seems intentional.”</p>
<p>&#8211;Seventh, Anderson debunks Nibley’s apologetics by arguing that it is burdened by “a lack of scholarly standards in evaluating sources.” In criticizing Nibley on this score, he notes that “[f]irsthand accounts are impeached because they are not consistent with anti-Mormon fulminations of a century later, and contemporary accounts of episodes in Joseph Smith’s life are discredited almost wholly on the basis of later secondary reports.” Anderson criticizes Nibley for his “indiscriminate use of sources [which] enables him not only to oppose witnesses with non-witnesses but also to introduce sources whose only merit is that they make others appear unreliable by comparison.”</p>
<p>&#8211;Eight, Anderson chides Nibley for his “failure to consider Mormon sources when they concur with non-Mormon accounts,” further observing that “’The Myth Makers’ tends to disregard context” driven by Nibley’s “earnestness to impugn the whole corpus of non-Mormon literature.”</p>
<p>&#8211;Finally, Anderson sums up his critical assessment of Nibley’s multi-leveled demonstration of unprofessionalism by writing that “Nibley’s method of analysis is arbitrary” and “only proves what no one ever thought of denying, namely that not all historical documents are of the same evidential quality.”</p>
<p>Concludes Anderson:</p>
<p>“. . . Nibley’s argument fails on every significant point. Illogic, unsupported speculation, specious charges, misrepresentation, factual errors, indiscriminate and arbitrary use of sources, disregard of context, and a lock of scholarly standards characterize the book advertised by its publisher as a ‘masterful expose . . .[of] the makers of myths who told their untruths about Joseph Smith.’</p>
<p>“If Joseph Smith’s neighbors are to be discredited, it must be on the basis of better evidence than that advanced by Nibley.”<br />
_____</p>
<p>THE FUNDAMENTAL RELIABILITY OF THE AFFIDAVITS</p>
<p>Despite efforts by Nibley and other Mormon defenders to deny historical reality on the reliability of the affidavits in question, Anderson says:</p>
<p>“I believe that the testimonials collected by Hurlbut, [Arthur Buel] Deming, and others are in fact largely immune to the attacks launched by Nibley, Anderson, and others. . . . [T]here can be no doubt that these reports [from Hurlbut’s collected affidavits], in early twentieth-century German historian Eduard Meyer’s words, ‘give us the general opinion of his [Smith’s] neighbors in their true, essential form’” (quoted in Heinze F. Rahde and Eugene Seaich, trans., “The Origins and History of the Mormons . . . &#8220;[Salt Lake City, Utah: University of Utah, n.d., p. 4])</p>
<p>“ . . . [I]t is clear that a broader picture of Joseph Smith emerges from these early affidavits and interviews than is otherwise available from [Smith’s] family and followers.”</p>
<p>(Anderson, pp. 6-12, 14, 16-18, 20-22)<br />
_____</p>
<p>WIDER SCHOLARY ASSEESSMENT THAT THE AFFIDAVITS ARE AUTHENTIC AND BELIEVABLE</p>
<p>Predictably, Mormon apologists have relied on their traditional limited circle of Mormon defenders in unconvincing attempts to repudiate the affidavits.</p>
<p>Anderson writes that because of “the questionable reliability of the Kelley report and the lack of credible testimony discounting the affidavits collected by Hurlbut and others, most scholars outside of Mormonism have tended to accept the non-Mormon side of the issue. The number of witnesses, the unanimity of their testimony, the failure to impeach even a single witness, and the occasional candid reminiscence by Martin Harris, Brigham Young, Joseph Smith,. Lucy Mack Smith, William Smith, Joseph Knight, or other early Mormons have contributed to the conclusion that Hurlbut and his followers were probably reliable reporters.</p>
<p>Citing the work of J. H. Kennedy, “Early Days of Mormonism . . . “ (New York, New York, Charles Scribner’s Sons, 1888, pp. 17-18), Anderson observes that “[e]ven those who suspected that the witnesses against Smith may have been motivated by more than a simple desire to inform have not questioned the depictions of Smith as a basically self-seeking charlatan.”</p>
<p>(Anderson, pp. 6, 9)<br />
_____</p>
<p>IN THE END, THE AFFIDAVITS HOLD UP</p>
<p>Anderson crystallizes his assessment of the affidavits reliability as follows:</p>
<p>&#8211;“First, I can find no evidence that the primary source affidavits and other documents collected by Philastus Hurlbut, Eber D. Howe, and Arthur B Deming are other than what they purport to be. The men and women whose names they bear wither wrote them or authorized them to be written. Ghost-writing my have colored some of the testimony, but there is no evidence that the vast majority of testators did not write or dictate their own statements or share the attitudes attributed to them.</p>
<p>&#8211;“Second, every contemporary attempt [in Smith’s era to impugn these accounts failed. Book of Mormon witness Martin Harris’s effort to prove Isaac Hale’s letter a forgery was contradicted by Hale himself. The attempts by Lucy Mack Smith and William Smith to exonerate the Smith family of certain charges were undone by the more candid admissions of friends or other family members. And RLDS apostle William Kelley’s report, designed to discredit Joseph Smith’s debunkers was itself discredited by many of those contacted by Kelley.</p>
<p>“The fact that these efforts resulted in impeaching not a single witness who testified against Smith, though many of these same witnesses were still alive and willing to repeat their testimony, supports the conclusion that the statements collected by Hurlbut and Deming can be relied on as accurate reflections of their signers’ views.</p>
<p>&#8211;“Third, with the possible exception of Peter Ingersoll, there is no evidence that the witnesses contacted by Hurlbut in 1833-34 and Deming in 1888 perjured themselves by knowingly swearing to a lie. In fact, existing evidence goes far to substantiate the recorded stories. The harmony of the accounts, the fact that they were collected by different people at different times and place, and the sometimes impressive confirmations supplied by independent witnesses or documents never intended for public consumption discredit the argument that the work of Hurlbut and Deming contains nothing but ‘trumped-up evidence.’</p>
<p>&#8211;“Fourth, there is no evidence that the majority of witnesses indulged in malicious defamation by repeating groundless rumors. Many based their descriptions on close association with the Joseph Smith, Sr., family. They did not always distinguish hearsay from observation, fact from inference, but they generally state whether or not the source of the information is firsthand, and several witnesses provided enough information to demonstrate that much what was previously thought to be popular rumor about the Smiths was not wholly groundless.</p>
<p>“Having survived the determined criticism of Mormon scholars Hugh Nibley and Richard L. Anderson, the Hurlbut-Deming affidavits must be granted permanent status as primary documents relating to Joseph Smith’s early life and the origins of Mormonism.”<br />
_____</p>
<p>THE AFFIDAVIT-SIGNERS’ FINAL ASSESSMENT OF JOSPEH SMITH</p>
<p>“In general terms, the Hurlbut, Howe, Deming and Kelley testimonials paint a portrait of a young frontiersman and his family, struggling to eke out a minimal existence in western New York, facing the discouraging realities of life on the margins of society.</p>
<p>“Intelligent and quick-witted, if not always a hard worker, Joseph Smith, Jr., had been brought up by parents who believed in angels, evil spirits, and ghosts; in buried treasures that slipped into the earth if the proper rituals were not performed to exhume them; in diving rods and seer stones, in dreams and visions, and that despite their indigent status, theirs was a family chosen by God for a worthy purpose. . . .</p>
<p>“Whether hunting for buried treasure or the ancient record of a lost civilization, neither Joseph nor his family saw any conflict between the secular pressures of earning a living, even by so esoteric a means as money digging, and a religious quest for spiritual fulfillment. If they could accomplish one goal by pursing the other, so much the better.”</p>
<p>“Nondescript and of little consequence until he started attracting others to his peculiar blend of biblical Christianity, frontier folk belief, popular culture, and personal experience, Joseph Smith was an enigma to his incredulous New York neighbors.</p>
<p>“For them, he would always remain a superstitious adolescent dreamer and his success as a prophet a riddle for which there was no answer.”</p>
<p>(Anderson, pp. 113-116)</p>
<br />  <a rel="nofollow" href="http://feeds.wordpress.com/1.0/gocomments/rfmorg.wordpress.com/391/"><img alt="" border="0" src="http://feeds.wordpress.com/1.0/comments/rfmorg.wordpress.com/391/" /></a> <img alt="" border="0" src="http://stats.wordpress.com/b.gif?host=rfmorg.wordpress.com&#038;blog=3935824&#038;post=391&#038;subd=rfmorg&#038;ref=&#038;feed=1" width="1" height="1" />]]></content:encoded>
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		<title>Mormon Answer Man Destroyed on Youtube</title>
		<link>http://rfmorg.wordpress.com/2009/05/17/mormon-answer-man-destroyed-on-youtube/</link>
		<comments>http://rfmorg.wordpress.com/2009/05/17/mormon-answer-man-destroyed-on-youtube/#comments</comments>
		<pubDate>Sun, 17 May 2009 21:25:30 +0000</pubDate>
		<dc:creator>measure76</dc:creator>
				<category><![CDATA[Church doctrine issues]]></category>
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		<description><![CDATA[I present the following with only one small comment: It&#8217;s freaken&#8217; awesome!<img alt="" border="0" src="http://stats.wordpress.com/b.gif?host=rfmorg.wordpress.com&#038;blog=3935824&#038;post=375&#038;subd=rfmorg&#038;ref=&#038;feed=1" width="1" height="1" />]]></description>
				<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I present the following with only one small comment: It&#8217;s freaken&#8217; awesome!</p>
<p><span id="more-375"></span><span class='embed-youtube' style='text-align:center; display: block;'><iframe class='youtube-player' type='text/html' width='450' height='284' src='http://www.youtube.com/embed/WqGNDJdYwOs?version=3&#038;rel=1&#038;fs=1&#038;showsearch=0&#038;showinfo=1&#038;iv_load_policy=1&#038;wmode=transparent' frameborder='0'></iframe></span></p>
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		<title>Chat with a Mormon Missionary: Part 1: Polygamy</title>
		<link>http://rfmorg.wordpress.com/2009/04/28/chat-with-a-mormon-missionary-part-1-polygamy/</link>
		<comments>http://rfmorg.wordpress.com/2009/04/28/chat-with-a-mormon-missionary-part-1-polygamy/#comments</comments>
		<pubDate>Tue, 28 Apr 2009 18:27:31 +0000</pubDate>
		<dc:creator>measure76</dc:creator>
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		<category><![CDATA[polygamy]]></category>

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		<description><![CDATA[I got the following from blog corrospondent Kyle, who had an interesting chat with &#8220;Dan&#8221; at mormon.org.  Kyle was trying to get Dan to see the problems with church teachings. For clarity, and to punish Kyle for being so mean as to actually try to make a mormon think about his beliefs, I&#8217;m coloring Kyle&#8217;s [...]<img alt="" border="0" src="http://stats.wordpress.com/b.gif?host=rfmorg.wordpress.com&#038;blog=3935824&#038;post=372&#038;subd=rfmorg&#038;ref=&#038;feed=1" width="1" height="1" />]]></description>
				<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I got the following from blog corrospondent Kyle, who had an interesting chat with &#8220;Dan&#8221; at mormon.org.  Kyle was trying to get Dan to see the problems with church teachings.</p>
<p>For clarity, and to punish Kyle for being so mean as to actually try to make a mormon think about his beliefs, I&#8217;m coloring Kyle&#8217;s text red.</p>
<p>Kyle is my &#8216;theist&#8217; corrospondent.</p>
<p>-Chat Begins-</p>
<p><span id="more-372"></span></p>
<p><span style="color:#ff0000;">Kyle:<br />
Hello?<br />
</span><br />
Dan:<br />
Hello how can I help you today?</p>
<p><span style="color:#ff0000;">Kyle:<br />
Hi Dan, where are you from?</span></p>
<p>Dan:<br />
Hi</p>
<p>Dan:<br />
I am from Washington State</p>
<p><span style="color:#ff0000;">Kyle:<br />
Me too.<br />
</span><br />
<span style="color:#ff0000;">Kyle:<br />
I&#8217;m in Kent.<br />
</span><br />
Dan:<br />
Oh I am from Spokane</p>
<p><span style="color:#ff0000;">Kyle:<br />
oh, I see.<br />
</span><br />
Dan:<br />
Yeah I love Washington.</p>
<p>Dan:<br />
Did you have a question I could help you out with today</p>
<p><span style="color:#ff0000;">Kyle:<br />
So uh, I was wondering, based on a article I read this week&#8230; mormons were saying that They don&#8217;t practice polygamy anymore. Is that because polygamy is against church teachings?<br />
</span><br />
Dan:<br />
Yes polygamy is against the churches teachings.</p>
<p>Dan:<br />
It is been outlawed for a very long time now</p>
<p><span style="color:#ff0000;">Kyle:<br />
So would it be considered a sin to practice polygamy, in the mormon church?<br />
</span><br />
Dan:<br />
Yes and a very serious one. Anyone that practices polygamy is immediately removed from the church records and is no longer a member</p>
<p><span style="color:#ff0000;">Kyle:<br />
So, if polygamy is bad, and a sin, even&#8230; why did the first leaders of the church practice it?<br />
</span><br />
Dan:<br />
You know I don&#8217;t know exactly why they did. I know that back then the Lord deemed it necessary at that time to practice it. Today that need has passed and the Lord has outlawed such practices</p>
<p><span style="color:#ff0000;">Kyle:<br />
Hold on&#8230; are you saying that God deemed it necessary for his people to sin?<br />
</span><br />
Dan:<br />
No I am saying that throughout history God has instituted Polygamy to his people. Such is the cas in the days of Abraham and David and other Prophets. However, it is only at certain times. When the church first started the Lord allowed it but the Lord has</p>
<p>Dan:<br />
since indtructed us to stop the practice</p>
<p><span style="color:#ff0000;">Kyle:<br />
But you said that polygamy was a sin. I don&#8217;t believe that God would ever instruct his people to sin. I&#8217;m sorry, that&#8217;s just my belief.<br />
</span><br />
Dan:<br />
And that is okay. I am not say that the Lord is telling his people to sin. I am trying to say that at certain points in the history of the World God has instructed his people to participate in Polygamy and other times he has not</p>
<p><span style="color:#ff0000;">Kyle:<br />
But you said that polygamy is a sin, so you are saying that sometimes God instructs his people to sin.<br />
</span><br />
Dan:<br />
Did he instruct Abraham to sin when he had multiple wives. No but then later he stopped the practice</p>
<p><span style="color:#ff0000;">Kyle:<br />
Well, if polygamy is a sin, then I guess that&#8217;s another problem. But I wasn&#8217;t really asking about the problems in the bible. It just seems to me that mormon teachings are quite contradictory when it comes to polygamy.<br />
</span><br />
Dan:<br />
Well this is what I know. That the Lord teaches us through prophets. And I know that Joseph Smith was a prophet and at a certain time God instructed him to allow Polygamy.</p>
<p><span style="color:#ff0000;">Kyle:<br />
So God instructed him to sin? (we&#8217;ve already established that you believe polygamy is a sin)<br />
</span><br />
Dan:<br />
Later God instructed the new prophet after Joseph Smith that Polygamy should no longer be practiced</p>
<p><span style="color:#ff0000;">Kyle:<br />
Let me see&#8230; according to what I&#8217;m reading, the next 3 or 4 prophets also practiced the sinful act of polygamy.<br />
</span><br />
Dan:<br />
Sir I don&#8217;t understand your purpose in coming here. Are you just trying to prove that my church is wrong. If you want to know what we believe in Polygamy then I will tell you that we no longer practice polygamy. We haven&#8217;t for a long time</p>
<p><span style="color:#ff0000;">Kyle:<br />
Prove it is wrong? I&#8217;m just trying to figure out why mormons now say polygamy is sinful, but then say it was not sinful before&#8230;. almost like you believe in a changing god.</span></p>
<p><span style="color:#ff0000;">Kyle:<br />
Well, I&#8217;m sorry, I guess you never said it wasn&#8217;t sinful before. You seem to be saying that God sometimes orders people to do sinful things&#8230; is that what I would expect to see if I joined the mormon church?</span></p>
<p>Dan:<br />
No you would see that we are led by a loving heavenly Father that looks after us through Prophets that reveal the truth to us.</p>
<p><span style="color:#ff0000;">Kyle:<br />
How can I be sure that they won&#8217;t ask me to do sinful things, since they have done so, in your church, in the past?<br />
</span><br />
Dan:<br />
Well if they ever ask you to do something and you question it. I know through prayer you can know the truth and that the Lord will reveal to you what you should do</p>
<p><span style="color:#ff0000;">Kyle:<br />
So if the prophet asks me to do something that God says in scripture is sinful, I should ask God if he is authorizing the sin?<br />
</span><br />
Dan:<br />
The prophet would never ask you to do such a thing but the Lord will tell you what you should do. The scriptures tell us that the Lord&#8217;s ways are not our ways. But also know that we can ask God what we should do and he will tell us</p>
<p><span style="color:#ff0000;">Kyle:<br />
How can you say that the prophet would never ask me to sin, when in mormon history prophets have asked people to sin?<br />
</span><br />
Dan:<br />
Because I have personally followed the Prophets counsel today and never been led astray and I have felt the Lord&#8217;s guidance in my life continually</p>
<p><span style="color:#ff0000;">Kyle:<br />
So because the prophet has never asked you to sin he will never ask me to sin? Is that what you are saying?<br />
</span><br />
-chat abruptly cut off-</p>
<p>Poor Dan. Oh well, hopefully I gave him some stuff to think about.</p>
<p>-Kyle</p>
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		<title>What the Mormons Won&#8217;t Tell You</title>
		<link>http://rfmorg.wordpress.com/2009/04/27/what-the-mormons-wont-tell-you/</link>
		<comments>http://rfmorg.wordpress.com/2009/04/27/what-the-mormons-wont-tell-you/#comments</comments>
		<pubDate>Mon, 27 Apr 2009 19:36:49 +0000</pubDate>
		<dc:creator>measure76</dc:creator>
				<category><![CDATA[Church doctrine issues]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[brigham young]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[ex mormon]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[exmormon]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[joseph smith]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[LDS]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[Mormon]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[mormonism]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[mormons]]></category>

		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://rfmorg.wordpress.com/?p=369</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Ok, So i&#8217;m posting on my blog again today. Don&#8217;t expect me to go back to regular updates, but as I&#8217;ve said before, I may post interesting things from time to time. This list was posted to the RfM board by &#8220;Lost&#8221;, and he found it from another source, linked below. Facts: Mormons Wont Tell [...]<img alt="" border="0" src="http://stats.wordpress.com/b.gif?host=rfmorg.wordpress.com&#038;blog=3935824&#038;post=369&#038;subd=rfmorg&#038;ref=&#038;feed=1" width="1" height="1" />]]></description>
				<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Ok, So i&#8217;m posting on my blog again today. Don&#8217;t expect me to go back to regular updates, but as I&#8217;ve said before, I may post interesting things from time to time.</p>
<p>This list was posted to the RfM board by &#8220;Lost&#8221;, and he found it from another source, linked below.</p>
<p>Facts: Mormons Wont Tell You When They Call at Your Door.<br />
<a href="http://www.macgregorministries.org/mormons/facts.html">http://www.macgregorministries.org/mormons/facts.html</a></p>
<p>MORMONS WON&#8217;T TELL YOU that they believe your Church is wrong, your Christian creeds are abomination to God, and you pastor or Priest is a hireling of Satan.<br />
<span id="more-369"></span><br />
MORMONS WON&#8217;T TELL YOU that there is salvation only in their church &#8211; all others are wrong.</p>
<p>MORMONS WON&#8217;T TELL YOU that those who have been through their temples are wearing secret underwear to protect themselves from &#8220;evil&#8221;. This &#8220;evil&#8221; includes non &#8211; Mormons like you.</p>
<p>MORMONS WON&#8217;T TELL YOU about their secret temple rites at all. If they did, you would spot them as non Christians immediately.</p>
<p>MORMONS WON&#8217;T TELL YOU that they think &#8220;familiar spirits&#8221; are good, and that their Book of Mormon has a &#8220;familiar spirit&#8221;. Leviticus 19:31 says familiar spirits defile one, and are to be avoided at all costs.</p>
<p>MORMONS WON&#8217;T TELL YOU that women receive salvation only through their Mormon husbands, and must remain pregnant for all eternity.</p>
<p>MORMONS WON&#8217;T TELL YOU that they intend to be gods themselves some day, and are helping to earn their exaltation to godhood by talking to you.</p>
<p>MORMONS WON&#8217;T TELL YOU that they intend to have many wives in heaven, carrying on multiple sex relations throughout eternity, until they have enough children to populate their own earth, so they can be &#8220;Heavenly Father&#8221; over their own planet!</p>
<p>MORMONS WON&#8217;T TELL YOU that you were once a spirit &#8211; child of their heavenly father, and one of his numerous wives before you were born on earth.</p>
<p>MORMONS WON&#8217;T TELL YOU that the Virgin Mary really wasn&#8217;t a virgin at all but had sex relations with their heavenly father to produce the Mormon version of Jesus Christ</p>
<p>MORMONS WON&#8217;T TELL YOU that they believe Jesus had at least three wives and children while he was on this earth.</p>
<p>MORMONS WON&#8217;T TELL YOU that the &#8220;heavenly father&#8221; they ask you to pray to with them, is really an exalted man that lives on a planet near the star base Kolob, and is not the Heavenly Father of the Bible at all.</p>
<p>MORMONS WON&#8217;T TELL YOU that Jesus was really Lucifer&#8217;s brother in the spirit world, and it was only due to a &#8220;heavenly council&#8221; vote that Jesus became our redeemer instead of Satan!!</p>
<p>MORMONS WON&#8217;T TELL YOU that there are over one hundred divisions in Mormonism. They conveniently &#8220;forget&#8221; this while criticizing the many denominations within the body of Christ</p>
<p>MORMONS WON&#8217;T TELL YOU that all their so- called scriptures such as the Book of Mormon, Pearl of Great Price, Doctrine and Covenants, and even their official &#8220;Mormon Doctrine&#8221; statements contradict each other on MAJOR doctrinal points. The King James Bible is likewise contradicted.</p>
<p>MORMONS WON&#8217;T TELL YOU that the reason the Book of Mormon has no maps is because there is not one scrap of archaeological evidence to support it!</p>
<p>MORMONS WON&#8217;T TELL YOU that the state of Utah, which is predominately Mormon, has a higher than the national average of wife-beating, child abuse, and teenage suicide.</p>
<p>MORMONS WON&#8217;T TELL YOU that their prophet Joseph Smith was heavily involved in the occult when he founded Mormonism.</p>
<p>MORMONS WON&#8217;T TELL YOU that that they encourage visitations from dead relatives from the &#8220;spirit world&#8221;, a practice forbidden in the Bible. (Deuteronomy 18:10-12.)</p>
<p>MORMONS WON&#8217;T TELL YOU that there are many accounts of Joseph Smith&#8217;s first vision besides the one they present to you, and all are different</p>
<p>MORMONS WON&#8217;T TELL YOU that their secret temple oaths are based on the Scottish Rite Masons.</p>
<p>MORMONS WON&#8217;T TELL YOU that before 1978 they considered the Negro race inferior, and even one drop of Negro blood prevented a person from entering their priesthood.</p>
<p>MORMONS WON&#8217;T TELL YOU that they expect Christ to return to their temple in Missouri, but they haven&#8217;t built the temple He&#8217;s supposed to return to, because they don&#8217;t own the property. (It is owned by the &#8220;Temple Lot Mormons&#8221; who have plans of their own, and won&#8217;t let the Salt Lake City group buy it).</p>
<p>MORMONS WON&#8217;T TELL YOU that they consider the Bible to be untrustworthy and full of errors.</p>
<p>MORMONS WON&#8217;T TELL YOU that Jesus&#8217; death on the cross only partially saves the believer.</p>
<p>MORMONS WON&#8217;T TELL YOU that that according to Anton Lavey&#8217;s Satanic Bible, the demon god of the living dead is called &#8220;Mormo&#8221;. Is it just a coincidence that the Mormons are so concerned with the dead?</p>
<p>MORMONS WON&#8217;T TELL YOU that on their Salt Lake City Temple they prominently display an upside-down star which is a Satanic symbol known as the Goat&#8217;s head. Why?</p>
<p>MORMONS WON&#8217;T TELL YOU that they believe the Archangel Michael came down to earth with several of his celestial wives, and became Adam in the garden of Eden.</p>
<p>MORMONS WON&#8217;T TELL YOU that that they believe the angel Gabriel came down to earth and became Noah in the days of the flood.</p>
<p>MORMONS WON&#8217;T TELL YOU that their Prophet Joseph Smith prophesied falsely many times. For example, he foretold the second coming of Christ for 1891. The Bible teaches that one false prophecy puts the prophet under death sentence. (Deuteronomy 18:20-22).</p>
<p>MORMONS WON&#8217;T TELL YOU that their Prophet Joseph Smith did not die as a martyr as they claim, but was killed during a gun battle in which he himself killed two men and wounded a third.</p>
<p>MORMONS WON&#8217;T TELL YOU about the Mountain Meadows Massacre in which they brutally murdered an innocent wagon train of settlers, of over one hundred men, women, and most of the children, traveling through Utah.</p>
<p>MORMONS WON&#8217;T TELL YOU that Joseph Smith taught that there were inhabitants on the moon, and Brigham Young taught there were inhabitants on the sun as well!</p>
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		<title>This Blog is in Hibernation &#8211; Follow me on Twitter</title>
		<link>http://rfmorg.wordpress.com/2009/04/08/this-blog-is-in-hibernation-follow-me-on-twitter/</link>
		<comments>http://rfmorg.wordpress.com/2009/04/08/this-blog-is-in-hibernation-follow-me-on-twitter/#comments</comments>
		<pubDate>Wed, 08 Apr 2009 16:14:12 +0000</pubDate>
		<dc:creator>measure76</dc:creator>
				<category><![CDATA[Uncategorized]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[ex mormon]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[exmormon]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[LDS]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[Mormon]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[mormonism]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[twitter]]></category>

		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://rfmorg.wordpress.com/?p=366</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[I&#8217;m still alive, but I think maybe I accomplished everything I needed to with this blog. I won&#8217;t kill the blog, it will stay up,  and I will continue to monitor and respond to comments. I may start posting here regularly again one day, but for now, the blog will hibernate. I have taken my [...]<img alt="" border="0" src="http://stats.wordpress.com/b.gif?host=rfmorg.wordpress.com&#038;blog=3935824&#038;post=366&#038;subd=rfmorg&#038;ref=&#038;feed=1" width="1" height="1" />]]></description>
				<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I&#8217;m still alive, but I think maybe I accomplished everything I needed to with this blog.</p>
<p>I won&#8217;t kill the blog, it will stay up,  and I will continue to monitor and respond to comments.</p>
<p>I may start posting here regularly again one day, but for now, the blog will hibernate.</p>
<p>I have taken my active anti-mormon proslytizing to twitter. You can follow my feed there: <a href="http://twitter.com/measure76">http://twitter.com/measure76</a> </p>
<p>It is easier to share articles from exmormon.org there, though they won&#8217;t get archived that way. But I think I&#8217;ve archived a really good sample here, and if I see anything that&#8217;s really new and interesting, I will come back to this blog and post it.</p>
<p>One more thing about my twitter feed&#8230; while primarily exmo-rantings througout the week, on NASCAR Racedays, and Seahawks GameDays, I&#8217;ll be twittering about those subjects.</p>
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		<title>Making of the Mormon Temple Ceremony Video</title>
		<link>http://rfmorg.wordpress.com/2009/03/13/making-of-the-mormon-temple-ceremony-video/</link>
		<comments>http://rfmorg.wordpress.com/2009/03/13/making-of-the-mormon-temple-ceremony-video/#comments</comments>
		<pubDate>Fri, 13 Mar 2009 18:01:32 +0000</pubDate>
		<dc:creator>measure76</dc:creator>
				<category><![CDATA[Biographical story]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[Church Policy]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[big love]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[ex mormon]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[exmormon]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[LDS]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[lds temple]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[lds temple ceremony]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[Mormon]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[mormon temple]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[mormon temple ceremony]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[sacred ceremony]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[sacred not secret]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[secret ceremony]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[temple ceremony]]></category>

		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://rfmorg.wordpress.com/?p=359</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Through the RfM board, I have recieved some information regarding the making of the LDS temple ceremony video.  Not the Big Love episode, but the actual video used in real Mormon Temples. One thing that is interesting to note is that I will be presenting more information about how the video has been made here, [...]<img alt="" border="0" src="http://stats.wordpress.com/b.gif?host=rfmorg.wordpress.com&#038;blog=3935824&#038;post=359&#038;subd=rfmorg&#038;ref=&#038;feed=1" width="1" height="1" />]]></description>
				<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Through the RfM board, I have recieved some information regarding the making of the LDS temple ceremony video.  Not the Big Love episode, but the actual video used in real Mormon Temples.</p>
<p>One thing that is interesting to note is that I will be presenting more information about how the video has been made here, than has ever been made public to the church&#8217;s own members through official channels. I guess if you want to learn more about the church, sometimes anti-mormon websites are your best bet.</p>
<p>Without further ado, here is the information:</p>
<p><strong>Temple Move Production Memories</strong></p>
<p>by &#8220;One who was there&#8221;</p>
<p><em>name witheld</em></p>
<p>The first of the ‘newest’ temple films was made in 1988,<br />
entirely on stage at the LDS Motion Picture Studio in<br />
Provo, Utah.</p>
<p><span id="more-359"></span></p>
<p>Before going into production, the studio built a complete<br />
film processing lab in order to avoid outsiders seeing the<br />
footage when the film was processed. It was an<br />
astronomically expensive undertaking, and for a number<br />
of years afterward they kept the lab running to process<br />
church stuff, but eventually the costs WAY outweighed<br />
the benefits, and they have since shut it down (smart<br />
since everything is moving digital anyway).</p>
<p>The entire studio was dedicated by Hinckley as a Temple,<br />
and no one was allowed on the lot without a recommend.<br />
I think once both projects were done it was assumed the<br />
studio was &#8220;un-dedicated&#8221; since no one came back to<br />
remove the official designation as a &#8220;temple.&#8221;</p>
<p>The original concept and design of the “heaven” set was<br />
completely different from the one you see in the movie.<br />
In the original version, the set consisted of three elliptical<br />
shapes, covered in gold shiny material, stacked on each<br />
other against a void of stars. When the set was<br />
completed and camera tests were done, it looked too<br />
much like Star Trek and the set was scrapped, and<br />
replaced by the painted ‘marble’ columns that exist in<br />
both versions of the film.</p>
<p>The second film, made in 1990, was partially filmed on<br />
state at the motion picture studio, and partially filmed<br />
out on location.</p>
<p>The logistics of filming such a secret project on location<br />
were staggering. In order to get the best light, we left<br />
for location VERY early in the morning, would take a long<br />
break in the middle of the day, then resume filming in the<br />
afternoon. the hours were horrendous. There was so<br />
much tension on set. Everyone was constantly on edge,<br />
and tempers flared all the time. It was the closest I have<br />
ever come to quitting a show in my career, because the<br />
vibe on set was so terrible.</p>
<p>At the time, everyone felt it was “the adversary” trying to<br />
prevent the film from being made. In retrospect,<br />
however, I think it was that the energy was just not lining<br />
up. I was constantly being yelled at for no reason my my<br />
immediate supervisor. Everything that could go wrong,<br />
did.</p>
<p>Some scenes were filmed on a church-owned ranch on<br />
the Utah-Wyoming border. The ranch was so vast you<br />
could look horizon-to-horizon and see only church<br />
property. It was a cattle ranch, and one day a stampede<br />
of mad cows came crashing through base camp, sending<br />
us all running to the trailers for cover.</p>
<p>We had code-names for all the characters so that anyone<br />
picking up our walkie-talkie broadcasts would have no<br />
clue what we were doing. Adam and Eve were referred to<br />
as &#8220;Jack and Jill&#8221; and Peter James and John were called<br />
&#8220;The Three Bears.&#8221; We nicknamed the film itself<br />
&#8220;Chronicles.&#8221; God and Jesus were &#8220;the shiny guys.&#8221;</p>
<p>The scripts, wigs, and other props were kept in a large<br />
vault (pretty much exactly like the big bank vaults you<br />
see in movies) and every morning we had to count every<br />
page of every script to make sure none were missing;<br />
scripts were never set around anywhere but were always<br />
in someone&#8217;s personal possession; at the end of the day<br />
we again went through every copy of every script to<br />
count pages. (Forget that anyone could have taken a<br />
script to the copy machine down the hall and made 50<br />
copies; no one really admitted that at the time!) But it<br />
was almost freakish how terrifically important we all<br />
were. You would have thought Armageddon was on the<br />
verge of happening if we slipped up on one thing.</p>
<p>We filmed the altar for Adam and Eve on a private ranch<br />
here in Utah, but when we made contact of course no<br />
one told the owners what film it was. One morning after<br />
we had built the set but before we started filming, we got<br />
a call from the owners, completely unhinged and upset<br />
because they had found a stone altar on their property<br />
and thought we were doing satan-worship!! At that point,<br />
the church told us to let them know about the project so<br />
they would not freak out again. That location was awful;<br />
deep mud everywhere, and we had to make new roads to<br />
get our equipment to the set. Then of course the<br />
helicopter was a nightmare, because of the wind it<br />
created&#8230;.</p>
<p>The couples playing Adam and Eve in both films were<br />
required to be actual married couples. For one of the two<br />
films, the couple were literally whisked home from their<br />
honeymoon by church officials who wanted them to play<br />
the roles in the film. I thought it was bizarre that it was<br />
so urgent they literally had to end their own honeymoon</p>
<p>early &#8212; but of course, having covenanted to give<br />
everything to the church, they were thrilled. The set<br />
was, as you can imagine, VERY modest.</p>
<p>As I mentioned before, the first film was done all on<br />
stage, with everything created from scratch. The art<br />
department spent HOURS gluing fake leaves to the tree<br />
branches to create the garden of Eden. And the huge set<br />
backdrop for the heaven set was outfitted with thousands<br />
and thousands of fiber-optic lights to create the &#8216;stars&#8217;.<br />
Behind the cyc, there were rows of projectors supplying<br />
the light to the tiny cables, which were stuck through<br />
little holes in the back of the cyc. This was a NIGHTMARE<br />
to create and maintain. A few years after the films were<br />
done, they were finally removed. (Of course today the<br />
stars would be digital effects, not physical creations on<br />
set.)</p>
<p>The funny thing is, before we went into production,<br />
Gordon B. Hinckley came to the studio and gave a<br />
fireside, in which he instructed everyone involved to<br />
never divulge the behind-the-scenes stuff of the films,<br />
because it would &#8216;ruin the experience&#8217; for temple-goers.<br />
But no sooner were the films &#8216;released&#8217; than the animal<br />
wrangler on the films went all over the place doing<br />
firesides, talking about the role of the animals in the<br />
films, and told some stories I never recognized from the<br />
production!!! All in the spirit of testimony-strengthening<br />
embellishment, I suppose!</p>
<p>All in all, I can say it was a wild adventure. And we<br />
thought at the time we were practically deserving of<br />
exaltation for making God&#8217;s Greatest Movies Ever. But<br />
when we prayed for good weather and it was a downpour</p>
<p>instead, no one got mad at God for ignoring us, or for<br />
letting Satan drench us in his anger. It just made us all<br />
the more determined.</p>
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		<title>The Mormon Delusion</title>
		<link>http://rfmorg.wordpress.com/2009/03/01/the-mormon-delusion/</link>
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		<pubDate>Sun, 01 Mar 2009 17:04:44 +0000</pubDate>
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				<category><![CDATA[Church History]]></category>
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		<category><![CDATA[jim whitefield]]></category>
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		<description><![CDATA[At RfM, poster Jimmy Rainbow has the following news about his new book, &#8220;The Mormon Delusion&#8221;. After three years of full time research and writing, following his accidental discovery of polyandry, Jim Whitefield (a.k.a. Jimmy Rainbow on RfM), announces publication of the first of three books covering the hoax of Mormonism. “The Mormon Delusion. Volume [...]<img alt="" border="0" src="http://stats.wordpress.com/b.gif?host=rfmorg.wordpress.com&#038;blog=3935824&#038;post=355&#038;subd=rfmorg&#038;ref=&#038;feed=1" width="1" height="1" />]]></description>
				<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>At RfM, poster Jimmy Rainbow has the following news about his new book, &#8220;The Mormon Delusion&#8221;.<br />
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<td bgcolor="#eeeeee">After three years of full time research and writing, following his accidental discovery of polyandry, Jim Whitefield (a.k.a. Jimmy Rainbow on RfM), announces publication of the first of three books covering the hoax of Mormonism.<br />
“The Mormon Delusion. Volume 1. The truth Behind Polygamy and Secret Polyandry” is now available worldwide, in five currencies; in Hardback; Paperback; or as a download, from Lulu.com and in a few weeks time books will also be available from Amazon or on order from UTLM or any good bookstore.   </p>
<p>Jim’s Storefront can be accessed at:</p>
<p><a href="http://stores.lulu.com/store.php?fAcctID=3194881" target="_blank">http://stores.lulu.com/store.php?fAcctID=3194881</a> </p>
<p>Where the cover and several pages of the book can be viewed and book reviews can also be left. </p>
<p>This work is a hard hitting, impassioned exposé of the truth behind Mormon polygamy and little known polyandry. This is not a one sided, sugar coated book of Mormon fiction such as the Church produces. It is pure unadulterated evidence of the truth which the Mormon Church hides from members so they won’t ask questions for which there are no theological answers.</p>
<p>Further details of Jim and his work, plus previews of all the chapters in all three volumes of The Mormon Delusion are now available at: </p>
<p><a href="http://themormondelusion.com/" target="_blank">http://themormondelusion.com</a> </p>
<p>where there are also links to the storefront and other useful web sites. Jim can now be contacted at:</p>
<p>jim@themormondelusion.com </p>
<p>What other authors have had to say about Volume 1:</p>
<p>Jim Whitefield’s “THE MORMON DELUSION. VOLUME 1 – <br />
The Truth Behind Polygamy and secret Polyandry” <br />
Is an excellent book for casual and serious readers. <br />
It presents new information about the secret <br />
And shocking aspects of early Mormon marriage.</p>
<p>Arza Evans<br />
Author of THE KEYSTONE OF MORMONISM<br />
____________________</p>
<p>Mormonism’s founder, Joseph Smith, secretly married over thirty women; some already married to living men, and had sexual relations with many of these women without the knowledge of his single “public” wife Emma. Most Mormons know nothing about this as it is left out of the one-sided histories Mormons are spoon fed by their church. After 43 years as a dedicated Mormon, Jim Whitefield was astonished to learn the true history of plural marriage as practised by Mormonism’s earliest leaders. In a thoroughly researched and “tell it like it is” approach Whitefield details the murky origins of plural marriage and its tragic consequences in the lives of numerous Mormon women.</p>
<p>Simon Southerton<br />
Author of Losing a Lost Tribe; <br />
Native Americans, DNA, and the Mormon Church. <br />
____________________</p>
<p>&#8220;The Mormon Delusion. Volume 2: The Secret Truth Withheld from Thirteen Million Mormons&#8221; will be available in April or May of 2009. </p>
<p>&#8220;The Mormon Delusion. Volume 3: Discarded Doctrines &amp; Nonsense Revelations&#8221; should follow by June or July of 2009. </p>
<p>My thanks to the RfM posters who volunteered to proof read the odd chapter for me last year. Group acknowledgement is made to RfM posters who read for me, in my books. Again, I want to say thank you for the encouragement and support I have been shown, by posters and also by Eric and everyone at RfM. Writing has been my therapy and if someone else is helped by my work then that is a bonus. Naturally, I would love to hear from anyone who feels they have gained some insight into more of the real truth through my work. </p>
<p>I have a very limited supply of signed hardback and paperback books available that may be of interest to people in the U.K. Please email for details. Postage costs will be cheaper than Lulu for hardback, the same for paperback. People outside the UK will find postage cheaper by purchasing direct from my Lulu bookstore. Just click on the link from my web site. </p>
<p>Please note my questfortruth@tiscali.co.uk email address will shortly disappear but I can be contacted at jim@themormondelusion.com in future. </p>
<p>Jim Whitefield</td>
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		<title>Sunday School Lesson Idea</title>
		<link>http://rfmorg.wordpress.com/2009/02/25/sunday-school-lesson-idea/</link>
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		<pubDate>Wed, 25 Feb 2009 18:33:42 +0000</pubDate>
		<dc:creator>measure76</dc:creator>
				<category><![CDATA[Gospel Doctrine Lessons]]></category>
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		<description><![CDATA[I won&#8217;t be reviewing the Gospel Doctrine Lesson this week. I don&#8217;t know if I&#8217;m burning out on it, of if Lesson 9 is just so densely stupid that I can&#8217;t get my mind around it. Instead, I&#8217;ll share a Lesson SpongeBob SquareGarments shared on RfM, from he was recently asked to teach a LDS Sunday [...]<img alt="" border="0" src="http://stats.wordpress.com/b.gif?host=rfmorg.wordpress.com&#038;blog=3935824&#038;post=351&#038;subd=rfmorg&#038;ref=&#038;feed=1" width="1" height="1" />]]></description>
				<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I won&#8217;t be reviewing the Gospel Doctrine Lesson this week. I don&#8217;t know if I&#8217;m burning out on it, of if Lesson 9 is just so densely stupid that I can&#8217;t get my mind around it.</p>
<p>Instead, I&#8217;ll share a Lesson SpongeBob SquareGarments shared on RfM, from he was recently asked to teach a LDS Sunday School Lesson to some teenagers:</p>
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<td bgcolor="#eeeeee">Lesson per the lesson manual:</p>
<p>Class members will learn to use the power of revelation in their own lives.</p>
<p>SpongeBob’s lesson:</p>
<p>The Holy Ghost is an unreliable method to learn the truth. I used all church sources and personal experiences to demonstrate that relying solely on the Holy Ghost to seek the truth can often lead to error.</p>
<p>I told the class I was going to read them 3 stories and that one was true, one was false and that the other one could be true or false. I told them to use the prompting of the spirit to determine which ones were true and which were false.</p>
<p>The voting was decisive. After reading the stories, every class member (14 students) definitely said that story # 1 was true. It was false. 11 out of 14 said that story # 2 was true. It was false. 13 out of 14 said that story #3 was false. It was true.</p>
<p>These were actual results and the stories were not manipulated by me.</p>
<p>I then asked the class what they thought about using the holy ghost as a reliable method of discerning truth. They whole-heartedly said that the spirit was simply not reliable.</p>
<p>I showed how emotion can be confused with the Holy Ghost and that you never really know if feelings are really from the HG or just your own emotions. I quoted from Elder Boyd K. Packer in an address that was printed in the 1983 LDS Ensign magazine in an article titled &#8220;Candle of the Lord&#8221;:</p>
<p>“The spiritual part of us and the emotional part of us are so closely linked that it is possible to mistake an emotional impulse for something spiritual. We occasionally find people who receive what they assume to be spiritual promptings from God, when those promptings are either centered in the emotions or are from the adversary.&#8221;</p>
<p>I also quoted from Packard’s same talk about how promptings can also come from Satan:</p>
<p>&#8220;Be ever on guard lest you be deceived by inspiration from an unworthy source. You can be given false spiritual messages. There are counterfeit spirits just as there are counterfeit angels. Be careful lest you be deceived, for the devil may come disguised as an angel of light.”</p>
<p>I then had one of the students read from the book Comprehensive History of the Church by B.H. Roberts to show how Joseph was deceived by Satan and the point being if even, the great prophet Joseph Smith couldn’t tell what promptings came from God and what promptings came from Satan, then how could the rest of us mere mortals possibly be able to discern what really is from the HG:</p>
<p>David Whitmer:<br />
Brother Hyrum said it had been suggested to him that some of the brethren might go to Toronto, Canada, and sell the copy-right of the Book of Mormon for considerable money: and he persuaded Joseph to inquire of the Lord about it. Joseph concluded to do so. He had not yet given up the stone. Joseph looked into the hat in which he placed the stone, and received a revelation that some of the brethren should go to Toronto, Canada, and that they would sell the copy-right of the Book of Mormon. Hiram page and Oliver Cowdery went to Toronto on this mission, but they failed entirely to sell the copy-right, returning without any money. Joseph was at my father&#8217;s house when they returned. I was there also, and am an eye witness to these facts. Jacob Whitmer and John Whitmer were also present when Hiram Page and Oliver Cowdery returned from Canada. Well, we were all in great trouble; and we asked Joseph how it was that he had received a revelation from the Lord for some brethren to go to Toronto and sell the copy-right, and the brethren had utterly failed in their undertaking. Joseph did not know how it was, so he enquired of the Lord about it, and behold the following revelation came through the stone: &#8220;Some revelations are of God: some revelations are of man: and some revelations are of the devil.&#8221; So we see that the revelation to go to Toronto and sell the copy-right was not of God, but was of the devil or of the heart of man. When a man enquires of the Lord concerning a matter, if he is deceived by his own carnal desires, and is in error, he will receive an answer according to his erring heart, but it will not be a revelation from the Lord.</p>
<p>We discussed the burning in bosom. We agreed that even this was not a reliable means to discern truth as ‘heart-warming’ feelings result from watching fictional movies. I then quoted Elder Oaks talk (Ensign, Mar ’97) where he admits to never having a burning in the bosom.</p>
<p>I decided to incorporate Jesus in there somewhere using something Grant Palmer taught: I told them how Jesus never invited anyone to know him by a religious feeling. Instead of advocating a controversial and highly subjective spiritual feeling methodology to know him and his teachings, Jesus taught: “If any man will do his [Father’s] will, he shall know of the doctrine, whether it be of God, or whether I speak of myself.”</p>
<p>I encouraged the members to follow the Golden Rule and to live a life worthy of receiving revelation but to realize the extreme limitations of the Holy Ghost and to not rely on revelation as a definitive guide to truth. The class seemed to have gotten the message.</p>
<p>Teaching the truth in Sunday School is a tough job but somebody’s got to do it.</p>
<p>Quotes used came from <a href="http://www.mormonthink.com/testimonyweb.htm#burningbosom" target="_blank">http://www.mormonthink.com/testimonyweb.htm#burningbosom</a></td>
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